NOTICE
THE BEST COPIES OBTAINABLE ARE
INCLUDED IN THE REPRODUCTION
OF THE FILE. PAGES INCLUDED
THAT ARE BLURRED, LIGHT OR
OTHERWISE DIFFICULT TO READ
ARE THE RESULT OF THE CONDITION
AND OR COLOR OF THE ORIGINALS
PROVIDED. THESE ARE THE BEST
COPIES AVAILABLE.
4 4
id ju j
7?ec.& /e.d 4
Dc/>/i X’tmeAjt
St e *A > , 'Pu b lie
nTTft'ns "P/PfcUi!
OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., al*
V.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al.
Plaintiffs* First Request For Pr oduction
and Inspection of Documents
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851
{‘Su.in <3 c i fL ( \ 3
excised copy
A.
DELETION CODES
Information which is properly classified pursuant to
Executive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonably
be expected to cause damage to the national security or the
conduct of the Government's international relations.
B Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal the
identity of an informant.
C. Information obtained from a foreign government or
international organization where there is an agreement or
understanding that the information received will be treated
confidentially.
D. Information protected under the Grand Jury Secrecy provision-
Rule 6(e) of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
E. Information, the disclosure of which would tend to identify a
source of information, where confidentiality is expressed or
implied.
F. Administrative file numbers.
G. The Law Enforcement Privilege - The disclosure of this
information could cause harm to, impede, impair, or hinder an
investigation and/or an investigative interest of the FBI.
H. Information, the disclosure of which would tend to compromise
the effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
I. Information, the disclosure of which would divulge opinions,
recommendations, and advice generated in the decision-making
process of the government.
J. Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by federal
statute (with citation to the appropriate statute) .
K. Information protected under the attorney-client privilege.
L. Information or material protected under the attorney work
product privilege.
M. Information which is not relevant to the matters at issue in
the litigation.
N. Information originating with another government agency which
must be referred to that agency for review. The use of this
code does not waive any applicable codes which may be applied
by the originating agency.
O. Other, as specified.
P. Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarranted
invasion of the personal privacy of an individual not party
to the litigation.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1
\
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
i
TAPE #216
4/13/93
1:10 A.M.
1:55 A.M.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
(Tape #216)
DAVID: -- mercy and truth, grace and
truth comes by Jesus. Okay. So, when the lamb comes
again, no doubt the subject of the seven seals is going
to be the main topic of what is to be presented.
JOHN- 4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And, so, the question is well, what
are the seven seals? Well, then, I say to these men, I
say, brethren, I know we don't judge any man after the
flesh and I know that we only judge the truth of God.
So, the first seal everybody knows is a man on a white
horse . He's got a bow and a crown . Let me show you
the seal, the first seal, the light of all the
prophets, because that's the acid test. I cannot tell
you from my theory, I have to show you, from
Deuteronomy all the way to Malachi, where this first
*
seal- is plainly revealed. So, when I take you to
Psalms 45 and I show you that that person in Psalms 45,
the king, he has a bow and a crown and he used to ride
prosperously because of truth. Then all of a sudden
these teachers go, wow, Psalms 45 is the prophecy of
the first seal. Then I take you to Psalms 1, 2, 3, 4,
5 -- and I begin to unlock the whole mystery of this
prophetic insight in regards to the first seal. Then
when I take you to Revelation 19, where clearly it's
revealed the marriage of the lamb, blessed are those
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
who are called to this marriage. We find in the
judgment of God the question in the judgment is not:
What did John do in his lifetime? Was you a good boy,
John? I mean, this is not like Santa Claus checking
his list, checking it twice, going to find out whether
you're naughty or nice. The only question is, is who
is willing to open this book. And the only answer is
Christ. And what Christ comes to bring to you is not
punishment, not judgment, but a truth, which is to set
you free.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, we know the Lutherans wanted
truth and they worked hard for it. They were
persecuted for it, same as the, the Methodists and the
Presbyrin (sic) and the Church of -- and the Baptists,
and every denomination, every honest soul has always
wanted to know the truth, right? Well, they never were
shown the seven seals. But if Peter is correct, Peter
says that there is to be grace which is to brought to
the --be brought to the church at the last time in a
revelation of Jesus Christ. And it's a beautiful
truth. But do you know what's gotten me into trouble
is, is that when I begin to open up these things it's
so clear that these leading men and these ministers see
it and they can't deny it. Okay? Now, what does that
mean? Well, it means one of two things.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
JOHN- 4 : It means you've got a difference of
opinion with somebody.
DAVID: Well, actually, remember, when I show
it to them it's so clear that even John Cox would (sic)
deny it. See?
JOHN- 4: Not even Cox?
DAVID: Not even Cox denied it. He agreed to
me .
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: But he's not into religion. But at
least he's wise enough to be able to say well, yeah, I
can see what you're saying. Yeah, that's -- okay,
okay, you're right, but that's what you believe. Okay,
fine. That is what I believe. But he chooses not to
-- it don't make no difference whether I was right or
wrong. See, he has that right. He'll deal with God a
different way. John will stand before God in the light
of the Ten Commandment law, not in the light of the
truth from Christ. You see what I'm saying?
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: A man doesn't want the truth to set
him free. Christ says if you continue in my doctrine,
you shall know the truth. The truth will set you free.
He would rather stand in the light of the law, the Ten
Commandments, and so your whole life will be reviewed
and every wrong thing you've done will be marked up and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
you'll receive a just recompense. But --
JOHN-4 : You get a choice?
DAVID: Well, only while you're living.
That's why
JOHN -4 : I thought, I thought --
DAVID: -- that's why
JOHN -4 : -- they had like two plans. You can
have the A or B plan, you know. You can go with the
Ten Commandments or you can go with the --
DAVID: Fine.
JOHN-4: -- understanding of the seven seals
program .
DAVID: Well, and, now remember, it starts
with understanding that Christ died for all of us.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And he forgave us, because we don't
what^ we're doing. He says, Father, forgive them, for
they don't know what they do. So, every man is under
grace. But you've got to first accept Christ. Now, if
you don't accept Christ, well, you know, there's laws
in the world, you know. Just like if you run a stop
sign you're going to pay the penalty, right?
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: If you beat your wife, you're going
to pay the penalty. If you rob or steal, hey, the, the
world has to have law. That's just the way it is. So,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
also, the world hereafter has laws. Christ came to
save us from the penalties of the laws of God and he
came to be righteous so that we can look to his
righteousness. So, when he says on the cross, Christ
says Father, into thy hand I commit my spirit, there's
something about Christ, something about his life, that
we don't know until we come up hither and see in the
right hand of God there's a book, and it will be
revealed when there's time no longer. Okay. Well,
what happened was is that in these meetings you see two
classes of people. You see one group that stands up
and says are you saying that you're Jesus Christ? You
see? And I go wait a minute, I'm not saying that. I'm
saying that if God sits on a throne and if he gave the
book to the lamb and, clearly, as it is written so is
it. No man in heaven nor on earth can open me to look
thereon. And if only the lamb can, and when there's
time no longer this truth is to be revealed on earth,
and if the lamb is going to come with the reward, then
the truth is the only salvation we have. And if I just
showed you that Psalms 45 is the first seal, then the
truth has come to you and we must follow the truth,
because God sits on the throne. We cannot judge men
sfter the sight of the flesh because no man has seen
the face of Christ and Christ is the Word of God made
flesh and everyone of us is to be the sons of God by
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
accepting God's truth. But, but are you saying you're
Christ? I'm saying that if I can show you the seven
seals, God has already declared that nobody but the
lamb can reveal the seven seals. Now, some of the
people are saying, hey, he's right, he's right. I want
to listen to him. He's right. Listen to this man.
Others are saying, this man's the devil. He's the
anti-Christ. Well, the ones who are saying I'm right
are saying I'm right because I showed them something
right out of the book.
JOHN-4: Well, David, who are you?
DAVID: So, they want to know the rest of the
seals. They want to know the rest of it.
JOHN- 4 : But who are you?
DAVID: Well, I'm a person, the person, who
has revealed and taught clearly from all the prophets
whati the mystery of God is of the seven seals.
JOHN- 4 : Then you're just an individual who
happened to read the Bible a little more closely than
somebody else?
DAVID: No, no, no, no, no, no. Remember,
for the last 1,500 years the greatest scholars in the
world have spent day and night. I mean, come on, there
are certain people who translated the whole Bible.
JOHN- 4: Maybe you lucked out. You know,
it's like winning the lottery, you know.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
DAVID: (Laughter.) Maybe there's a God in
heaven who sits on a throne and maybe he fulfills his
promise .
JOHN- 4 : Urn- hum. Well, if you're Jesus
Christ, I'd love to have your autograph.
DAVID: Well, look, Jesus Cristos (phonetic)
was the Greek name for Hashua (phonetic) . His name was
Hashua, okay?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: But it doesn't make no difference who
I am, really. What makes the difference is who are
you. Are you a person that's honest?
JOHN-4: I'm John-4.
DAVID: John-4. Are you a John-4 that's
honest at heart, that admits your --
JOHN-4: I'm John for --
j DAVID: -- and so- -
JOHN- 4 : -- peace.
DAVID: Okay. A peaceful John.
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: Well, blessed are the peacemakers for
they shall inherit the earth. The Beatitudes. But
here's the thing.
JOHN- 4 : Well, I don't want to inherit
anything. I just want to help you people out of this
situation.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
DAVID: Well, that's even good. I appreciate
for that. But if it's only stated in singleness of
heart, I mean, I'm saying that don't do it because
you're being paid. Do it because you really want to
see us- -
JOHN- 4: David, I'm paid --
DAVID: -- safely
JOHN -4 : -- I'm paid very little.
DAVID: Come on, FBI makes good benefits I've
heard.
JOHN-4: Oh, yeah? Hey, it's eroded quite a
bit. You haven't stayed up with that, you know?
DAVID: Well, I --
JOHN -4 : You know?
DAVID: -- have to admit that you got me
there.
*
JOHN- 4 : None of us are very fat, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN-4: But that's neither here nor there.
Let's talk about your situation.
DAVID: So, you see, so, then what happens is
that these churches begin to lose people . People come
out and say hey, wait a minute. The guy just made a
point. It's irrefutable. And they go, all right,
look, we don't know who you are, but all right, here's
the challenge. Show us the seals. And there's a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
10
split. And my purpose is that I have to show them,
don't I? I have to present to their mind and to their
intelligence and to their open-mindedness clearly what
has been spoken by the prophets in the light of these
seals. And my position is explained. Okay. So, then,
I get a following, don't I? But those who are against
this are against this because of one reason, John. You
see, it says in Revelation that Babylon -- this
confusion of religion, that's where Babylon is.
Everyone's talking about God.
JOHN-4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: But there's only one Revelation of
Jesus Christ. John says to be revealed, and that's the
seven seals. The subjects are very clearly presented
in the book of Revelation. And it doesn't cost a dime,
not one penny, just like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
t
didn't cost a dime when they were given it. But here's
the key: You see, religion has become very lucrative.
Multibillions every year are spent in the name of
religion.
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I agree with you 100 percent.
DAVID: Now, when Rome began to fall apart by
the nomadic kingdoms, according to the prophet Daniel,
Rome began to see how that the Christian church was
communal, just like Acts 1 and 2 tells you. When they
received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they sold all
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11
they had, disbursed among themselves and the poor, and
they shared everything alike. Now, I know that sounds
like a cult and everything, but that's what the
scripture said they did. Okay. When Rome saw how that
men would give every and all things for the name of
religion, that's when men of learning and education
said hey, let's incorporate Christianity into our
political reforms, and the making of what was known as
religio-political Rome began to develop. Now,
Thessalonians, Paul tried to warn against this. So,
the church and state alliance was developed to where
finally Rome took on a religious political system which
dealt with an earthly sanctuary, priests, knowledge.
But, of course, you know what they failed to reveal,
right? They failed to reveal the seven seals. And
they began to teach doctrines that were according to
*
theiy own devising, bits and parts of what they saw
scriptures to teach. They began to terrify men of
pending judgments and hellfire and damnation, and men
were required to pay heavy penances, heavy offerings,
heavy tithes, and that -- and, and, and -- well, like
St. Peters Church and everything, you know, it became
multi-- well, like what can I say? You know what I'm
talking about.
JOHN- 4 : Urn -hum.
DAVID: And the Lutherans likewise did the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
same thing and the Presbyterians and -- and not --
don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Jerry Falwell
and Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, and, and Billy Graham
are any worse than anybody else is in the world. I'm
saying these men probably don't know what they're doing
and they need to be forgiven. That's what I'm saying.
JOHN-4: Urn-hum.
DAVID: I'm saying that, hey, Christ died.
Forgive them. Father, they know (sic) what they do. If
you're, if you're born in a world where your father's a
Baptist minister, he lives off the Baptist tithe and
offering, doesn't he? And he's got a nice home and a
nice car and the IRS is saying hey, where you getting
all this money?
JOHN-4: Well, so-- some parishes, don't have
a pot to pee in, you know?
*
-■ DAVID: Exactly. So, that goes to prove that
just because a person is a Roman Catholic doesn't mean
that they're a devil, because there have been more
priests who have claimed poverty and have went out and
done good in the name of Christ than just about anybody
else. So, you can't judge any of these denominations
and say, well, the pigs say to the anti-Christ, and
Lutheran, he's the true -- no, no, no, no. No. See,
anti-Christ is anything that goes against the truth
that is seen.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
-s
13
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: Christ say6 if you don't know the
truth, you can't be judged by it.
JOHN- 4 : Do, do you have a cult?
DAVID: Do I, do I have a cult? You mean, a
bunch of blackbirds?
JOHN-4: No, cult. You mentioned the word
"cult . "
that .
DAVID: Well, in fact, a cult -- we're called
JOHN-4: Do you take offense at that?
DAVID: No, because, like I say, the thing of
it is is that these people that are here -- I
originally went and canvassed colleges, theological
institutions, you know, the hierarchy.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
i DAVID: The, the, the, the, the educated
minds. You know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll find
out when the people come out and everything that you're
not dealing with a bunch of, of illiterate people.
You're dealing with people who have -- some have
degrees, masters degrees, in theology.
JOHN-4: Now, when am I going to discover
that truth?
DAVID: Well, hopefully soon.
JOHN- 4 : Well, I, I'm with you there. You
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
16
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
know.
DAVID: But, but here's the thing. Now, for
instance, like when, when Brad was sent out and Kevin
was sent out, you know, these two people, we do have
some here that are people that we met out in the
streets .
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: People that were turned off to
religion, people that were -- you know. And, like I
say, in the streets I'm a different person than I am
when I'm dealing with, you know, high theological
minds. In the street it's like, you know, hey man,
well, you know, look, God sits on the throne.
Revelation said God's on the throne. He gave the book
of the lamb and the seven seals. You know, and, look
(indiscernible) is supposed to be revealed. Look, we
knov| it's the last days. Let me show you some of the
seals. The guys says, well, hey, sure. And he begins
to learn the seals. And, hey, it's true and, hey,
where did you learn this stuff at, Dave? You know, I
go on where, where does it say I learned it. He says
no man but the lamb, right? They go, maybe you're
trying to tell me you're Christ or something? No,
don't worry about who I am, but just look what the
scriptures says.
JOHN-4 : Are you the lone ranger?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(
15
(Laughter.) That's what they say, right?
DAVID: Well, it's like this, I'm not
supposed to be alone.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: There's one God, one book --
JOHN- 4 : Do you know what some people think
you are?
DAVID: What's that?
JOHN-4: The wizard of Oz.
DAVID: They say I'm a brainwasher.
JOHN-4: Well, I don't know if you're a
brainwasher. Did you read the wizard of Oz?
DAVID: Well, I, I've -- I'm -- I was raised
in a society where we saw it on TV a lot .
JOHN-4: Um-hum. Do you ever fear that
someone will look behind the curtain?
r
* DAVID: Absolutely not. I wish they would.
JOHN-4: Well, you know, if you, if you don't
come out and present yourself in public, people are
going to really think you're the wizard of Oz.
DAVID: Well, that even, that even -- see,
one thing that, that makes this work is when the -- was
when the initial shock dies down. Because what happens
is, is, is God has never worked in the New Testament
with the initial shock. Remember, it was after the
crucifixion of Christ and after he ascended into heaven
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
m . •
that the initial shock was to come after the
sensationalism.
reputation.
Remember, Christ made himself of no
JOHN- 4 ;
: Um-hum.
DAVID:
Now, I worked, I worked very
secretively and very cautiously throughout my journeys
across this country and Europe and in Australia. Like
I say, the truth is the --
JOHN- 4: Where do you get the bread to travel
like that? I envy you.
DAVID:
Bread to travel?
JOHN -4 :
Um-hum.
DAVID:
Such as $1,300 round trip between
here and Australia and back?
JOHN- 4 :
Really? That's it?
DAVID :
*
Well, that's it. Like I say, I don't
sta^ in fancy motels. And, and, as a matter of fact
(indiscernible) --
JOHN- 4 :
Hey, nei-- neither do I.
DAVID :
I, I travelled on a motorcycle.
JOHN- 4:
Uh-huh.
DAVID :
I went, I went one time eight times
between here and California on a motorcycle and, and,
and, and on one season between spring and, and, and the
beginning of winter.
JOHN-4: You ought to write one of those
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17
travel books. You know, how to see Europe on 50 bucks
or something, you know?
DAVID: You sleep on, on picnic park tables.
JOHN-4: Um-hum. Okay. It's a no-frills
tour, then?
DAVID: Well, if, if you like the excitement
of the wind in your face.
JOHN- 4: Yeah. I do.
DAVID: You see --
JOHN-4: I don't like the bugs in my eyes,
though .
DAVID: I'll be honest with you. Okay?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: So, when the -- when, when the
message started, a lot of people that, that came into
the message naturally wanted to support the message,
righ|t?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Unlike any other denomination, I've
never taken in part of any salary or income from any of
that. You'll find when you, when you, when you check
my, my car, that, that I built -- see, I don't drive a
new car.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see?
JOHN-4: Hey, very few people I know drive
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
new cars. Not in this --
18
DAVID: Well --
JOHN-4: -- business.
DAVID: -- a lot of people you know do.
JOHN-4: I, I don't know them socially.
Okay?
DAVID : Come on .
JOHN-4: I can name them, all right?
DAVID: John- 4.
JOHN- 4 : No, they're -- no, they're not peers
of mine, okay? (Laughter.) Okay. The single guys,
all right, a few of the single guys I know have new
cars. They've got to cop out. But I just bought a
used car.
DAVID: What kind was it?
JOHN-4: It's a Toyota. I hate to say
*
that - -
DAVID : You ' re not , you ' re not - -
JOHN-4: -- because Buy American
DAVID : -- being (indiscernible) .
JOHN-4: I'm serious. It was a Toyota. You
know.
DAVID: Well, I, I build my own cars from
ground up. And, and people like Paul Fatta and stuff
like that, people, they come in and, like I say, if
they want to help support the work, they have to be in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
the message. I have turned away hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of, hundreds of thousands of
dollars from people that wanted to support the message.
You see, you cannot support the message by money. Man
has a mind and man has an ability to relate what's in
his mind to other men. So, the ceiling of the 144,000
is something that's done by a truth being revealed, and
it says they followed the lamb wherever he goes . Okay?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: It's a reformation and a reform that
is to turn the world upside down. It's a truth,
lighter than any truth that man has ever received, and
yet the miracle of it is is that it's right there in
your Bible.
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: It's not a question of translation.
*
Because you may mistranslate a word here and there or a
paragraph, but you cannot translate the whole tenor of
scripture .
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: It's translated.
JOHN- 4: Well, well, if, if God wanted people
to see the -- you know, what the bestsel-- they -- you
know, the Bible's the bestseller, you know, of any book
ever published or written.
DAVID: That's why it's done this way.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
20
because
JOHN -4 : So --
DAVID: -- everybody has one today.
JOHN- 4 : -- why doesn't God just say hey, you
know, hit you on top of the head and say check out
Chapter so-and-so, you know? I mean, why doesn't, why
doesn't that happen?
DAVID: Well, it has. It has. But here's
the -- here's, here's the thing. We also have a power
of evil working against the truth, but here's the
thing. Today, unlike 2,000 years ago, 2,000 years ago
the general public did not have Bibles. They got all
their information from the, from the pharisees --
JOHN- 4 : Urn- hum.
DAVID: -- which would give them pieces and
parts and their interpretation.
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
i
DAVID: But we have been privileged, because
of the appointment of time, for everybody today has --
to have a well-intacted (sic) version of the
scriptures .
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Everyone '8 got one.
JOHN-4: When, when did this revelation come
to you, Dave?
DAVID: Well, it, it, it's something that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
began ever since I was born, but it actually -- the
full force of it came when I was in Israel in 1985.
That's when everything, that's when everything was --
JOHN-4: Is, is it like the lights go on or,
or does it come to you by degrees or layers or -- is
it, is it shazaam, or what?
DAVID: It's, it's a -- it's, it's far
greater than a shazaam. Like I say, you know, it's,
it's not so much what happened to me in 1985 that's
really important, because that's, that's, that's my
story, which I don't want to get into that until a
person is established in the seals, because otherwise,
you know, I know you, I know you -- you probably think
traditionally that God sits on a cloud and he's got a
long beard and -- but, but I have a completely
different understanding. You know, as you look out
t
intc^ the stars, you've got to realize --
JOHN- 4: What does -- you know, do you have
any opinion on what God looks like?
DAVID: Well, I'm -- sure, I've got an
opinion .
JOHN-4: What do you think?
DAVID: Well, I can tell you one thing,
there's not a blemish. I can tell you another thing.
He's flesh. I could tell you another thing, that
there's a, a theory in man's mind is called Shangri-La.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
16
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
22
It's called the searching out and finding the works of
all knowledge and truth. And I can tell you there's a
lot of stars in the universe. And I can tell you
beyond Orion there's a place where people like us and
yet unlike us consist by principles that are as
harmonious as the light rays of light, as the audio
waves of sound, and their law is kept out of a
principle of something that's established forever. The
fountain of life is with them. They, they travel in
ways and means to where no pollution. Everything works
together like a, like a finely fit watch. And the
incubation of this process is called earth. And
there's a reason for it. And that's why in the book of
Genesis it, it's -- one thing that I present to my more
advanced students, which I'll present to you because
I'm sure you'll appreciate this, and that is that
sometimes people look at the Bible with one eye closed.
Okay. God made heaven and earth. That's true. But it
doesn't say how, right? It says that God made man,
male and female, after their image, after their
likeness, and that's true. I mean, there's no better
ideal than the female, is there? But
JOHN -4 : I can't think of one off the top of
my head, Dave.
DAVID: Right. It was God's wisdom that did
it. And then what happens is that Adam and Eve sinned
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
and they became segregated. They began to realize they
were two - -
JOHN-4: That was the, the thing with the
apple, right?
DAVID: Well, it wasn't an apple. It was a
fruit .
JOHN- 4: Oh.
DAVID: It doesn't say apple.
JOHN- 4 : Okay. I think the American apple
growers started that .
DAVID: Exactly. It was a promotional thing,
I imagine .
JOHN-4: Okay. It was a snake in the apple.
Okay. Go ahead. I don't know. (Laughter.)
DAVID: (Laughter.) It's got a southern
theme , anyway . But, but the thing that, that I am to
brii^g to the attention of people is the statement that
very few people realize, and that is God told Adam and
Eve to replenish and remultiply the earth, which means
that there was something here before.
JOHN - 4 : Urn- hum .
DAVID: And the next thing I'm to present to
people is the fact that after Adam and Eve sinned,
behold he-- God said, behold, man has become as one of
us, knowing good and evil. And I'm here to tell you
and I'm here to show you from the prophecies that, you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
24
know, God can forgive sinners because things have not
always been perfect in the creation of God or in the
beginnings of creation.
JOHN- 4 : You know, more people have been
killed in the name of religion.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Exactly.
JOHN- 4 : Crusades and, you know, differences
of opinion.
DAVID: The, the zealots have always been.
But the thing of it is is that is God saying in Genesis
that God knows something about sin that -- because man
has sinned man's become equal to God and that maybe God
and man are to both learn a lesson, that once learned
it will never be repeated again? It's kind of like in
the parable of the prodigal son. You know, fatherhood
forces, us into a maturity that adolescence forbids us
to walk in.
i
JOHN- 4: Hmm.
DAVID: But the father, who finally has to
form himself into a pattern of society and existence,
gets up in the morning and drinks his coffee and, and
smokes his cigarette and eats his breakfast and kisses
his wife and goes to work and gets his paycheck and
comes home and by his labor he enjoys the medium
freedom that he is afforded by society. He's got to
follow the principles. And then he's able to have
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
25
offspring and he's able to create an existence for the
children to play with toys and play in the backyard
and, and be frivolic and foolish and he corrects them
according to his own wisdom and tries to, to, to help
them to grow into their responsibility. They're given
school and the school tries to teach them, and, of
course, there's always the wicked influences, which
usually have more sway over the sun than the principles
of wisdom. So, finally, Christ gives a parable of a
father who had two sons .
JOHN - 4 : Um- hum .
DAVID: And one son came to the age to where
the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and
freedom was more easily available outside the
jurisdiction of his father. So, he says father, give
me my inheritance that I may go and, and, and live my
own 'life. Now, the father was wise, so --
i
JOHN-4: He wanted to boogie, right?
DAVID: Yeah, he wanted to boogie. You know.
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: He didn't want to be under the
jurisdiction anymore.
JOHN- 4: yeah.
DAVID: So, he took his part of the
inheritance and he went off, and the Bible says Christ
says that he lived riotous living and spent his money
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
with harlots, you know, and had his fun with his
friends. And when the money was gone, after he spent
up the money that his father had worked for and put
aside for his well-being, his friends left. And he had
to get a job and his job was feeding pigs. He became
so impoverished that he began to desire to eat the food
the pigs were eating. And, finally, he came to his
sense and he says, man, in my father's house my
servants --my father's servants eat better than I eat.
I will go back to my father and I will say to my
father, father, I have sinned against thee and against
heaven and I'm not worthy to be called thy son. Please
hire me as a hired servant and, you know, let me work
for you. Well, the parable says that when the son
finally came to his senses by this terrible experience
of reality, that as he was walking a long distance away
off.'jthe father saw him coming, which no doubt the
father was watching for him. The father did this
knowing what it was going to take to snap this boy out,
if he could ever be snapped out. So, it says when the
father saw him a long ways off, the father ran out to
meet him and hugged him and kissed him. And the son
says father, I'm not --he didn't even get to be able
to say his whole sentence. The father called the
servants and called the brother and saying, kill the
fatted calf and bring a new robe and set it upon him in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
27
t
a ring, for my son is returned. He was dead and, lo,
now he's alive again. You know, and it was a big
party. Well, when the elder son came --
JOHN-4: He says, wait, I've been a good guy
all this time, worked my butt off --
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN-4 : This shithead comes home and you
give him a party.
DAVID: Yeah. And the father says, the
father says, son, all that I have is yours. When I'm
dead, when I'm gone, you're going to get everything.
But your brother was out and he was dead. He had
nothing. You know, and now he's come to his senses.
Now he's alive. It's necessary that we celebrate him
coming to his senses, you know. Learning a lesson is
the whole key to redemption. True religion is
education, true education. It's just like in our world
*
today. A person, when he becomes a criminal, all of a
sudden all these things are available, rehabilitation.
You know, we would like to see the thief, the murderer,
the rapist, we would like to see them re-- resaved,
rehabilitated, rebrought back in to the norm of
society. This is the hope and desire of many people
who have the sympathy for those who err, who cause
chaos to society. But a lot of times, you know, we
don't realize that, that society in itself may be the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
28
cause of a lot of these people to become the way they
are. Well, the whole key is, is that this is a parable
about God. God is not in heaven wanting to, to destroy
us and kill us and punish us like some would wish us to
think .
JOHN- 4 : How do you explain, you know,
hurricanes and tornadoes and things?
DAVID: Well, Matthew 24. Christ tells the
disciples, his disciples, that there will become
disasters and famines and earthquake in diverse places.
Let not your hearts be troubled.
JOHN-4: Well, what's the reason for that?
DAVID: Well, if it was not for the natural
catastrophes, if everything was Honolulu, Hawaii, who
would ever think about dying? Who would ever think
about the reason --
' JOHN- 4 : Don't you think --
i
DAVID: -- for living?
JOHN-4: -- anybody, anybody who just lost
their relative in a car wreck would think about it
probably .
DAVID: Yeah, but -- exactly. Now, the thing
of it is, what happens to us after we die? That's the
whole reason why Christ came, to reveal to men that
there is life after death.
JOHN - 4 : Um- hum .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
29
DAVID: Just as we came through the womb,
that the waters were --
JOHN-4: I still don't understand why we have
hurricanes and tornadoes and things.
DAVID: Well, because the sins of man. You
see, in the natural course of the flood, the earth was
tilted. Now, here I am getting into something to where
you don't know if I have the credentials to even say
these things. But it's a known fact -- let's just deal
from the scientific point of view, that -- for
instance, any time that you cut down thousands of acres
of timber, you change the geographic structure of
nature, don't you?
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: And the way our earth is, the way our
moon is, the way our gravitational pull of the ocean
is, ^the moisture content, the precipitation of, of, of,
of, of force and all that have a large part to play in
regards to how our, our, our whole system, geographic
system, works in regards to rainfall, precipitation,
and things --
JOHN- 4: Well, you're alluding to --
DAVID: -- like that.
JOHN-4: -- natural phenomenon.
DAVID: Okay. So, what happens is, is that
by turning away, according to Isaiah 24, turning away
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
30
of God's laws, breaking his ordinances, not allowing
the agricultural laws to be kept, man has turned his
world into a place that has a cat-- a catastrophic
influence on itself to cause itself to die. It's just
like, it's just like if you don't have a proper balance
in, in our air content. Pollution.
imbalances. It's just like if you eat junk food all
the time. And, oh, in high school when you're young
and vibrant, sure. You know, the body is a beautiful
mechanism of God, and while you're in the womb the
body, the genetics, will always bring forth from your
mother the most highest qualities of nutrients to
provide for the child every possible advantage it can.
JOHN- 4 : It's the mother that takes in the
right stuff?
DAVID: Exactly. And then if she doesn't, it
still protects the child to the best of its ability.
But the thing of it is this. When the child grows up,
we start filling it full of formula and we start
filling it full of chemicals and Coca-Cola and soft
drinks and candy bars and this --
JOHN- 4 : Like the ozone layer.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN-4: The pollution.
DAVID: And which is going to cause greater
JOHN-4: Twinkies.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
f
t
31
DAVID: -- and that.
JOHN-4 : Twinkies .
DAVID : Twinkies .
JOHN-4: Hey, air-- I've got to be honest
there. Right now I've got to have a Twinkie. I'm not
-- and I'm not being facetious.
DAVID: Oh, go ahead.
JOHN-4: You know, I'm not -- I don't live on
twinkies but, you know --
DAVID: Well --
JOHN-4: I was -- I, I'm a backslider
sometimes .
DAVID: Well, that's fine. I'm --
JOHN- 4 : And a pizza.
DAVID: -- I'm not your judge when it comes
to that.
j JOHN-4: And a pizza every now and then. Are
you a vegetarian, Dave?
DAVID: No. We're not vegetarian.
JOHN- 4: Okay.
DAVID: You know, there's, there's, there's a
reason for that too, which I get into a lot of trouble
for presenting that. But, anyway, the point of it is
is that what we sow we're going to reap. And when a
person fills their body with these chemicals, then the
body becomes these chemicals. And when these chemicals
32
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
become highly ingested into the system, we begin to
find a chemical reaction, this chemical reaction. Have
you ever taken, you know, chemistry in school? You put
certain chemicals together and plshh (noise) -- you can
get --
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: -- your nose, nosehair burned out.
JOHN- 4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Well, the same as -- people are
saying to themselves today well, what's this
spontaneous combustion? How come Joe was here
yesterday and no-- then today I come back and he's just
in a bunch of ashes on the floor?
JOHN- 4 : (Laughter.) Yeah.
DAVID: Well, you see, this stuff is one of
the signs too, which is the, the travail of the earth.
We cannot get away with eating -- you know, let's face
the facts. I mean, you know, a box of breakfast cereal
-- come off of it. You know, God, God made wheat.
And, and the closest -- closer it is to God's nature,
the better it is for us. Right?
JOHN- 4: Yeah. Can you recommend a brand?
DAVID: (Laughter.)
JOHN-4: I'm serious. Like Shredded Wheat,
okay?
DAVID : Granola .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
JOHN-4: I love the stuff. Granola is -- eh
-- you know, Shredded Wheat is, is really great, I
think. And I don't know if there's all a bunch of crap
in there or not. It --
DAVID: It's probably fortified with all
kinds of s-- but, fine. It's -- you know, there's more
to it than just meat and drink. I mean, you know, it's
a miracle of God that we even live by what we're given
by the merchants of the earth. The point I'm making is
JOHN- 4: Man cannot live by bread alone.
DAVID: But every word that proceeds out of
the mouth of God. Exactly. And God has promised grace
and God has promised mercy upon those who have not the
knowledge or the truth. Look, all you can go by the --
is the box. When you, when you, when you go to the
stofe and you see Captain Crunch and it says fortified
JOHN- 4: I wouldn't
DAVID: -- With --
JOHN-4: No, I wouldn't go near Captain
Crunch. I just --
DAVID: Well, but your kids might scream for
it.
JOHN- 4 : I wouldn't let them have it.
DAVID: Well, okay. Well, that's your
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
34
parental -- you know, your parental right. But they
might sneak it from your next-door neighbors. Or
Choc-- or Count Chocula or all those things.
JOHN-4: (Laughter.) What did you use that
one -- oh, oh, oh -- (laughter). No, that one's
definitely out.
DAVID: Let's see. Some Fruit Loops. No --
anyway -- but the point of it is is that you'll notice
that the merchants of the earth, it says in Revelation,
by their sorceries all nations were deceived. Now,
here you are. You're going to spend $2, $3, $4 for a
box of eight or eleven ounces of highly refined, highly
processed wheat and sugar, 80 percent sugar. And you
know cotton candy. You can take a little sugar, and
you know how big cotton candy can be --
JOHN-4: Oh, yeah.
«
j DAVID: -- puffed up.
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: So, you know, once I was a, I was a
kid and I, and I sat down, and I got in trouble because
I ate a whole box of breakfast cereal in one eating.
JOHN - 4 : Urn- hum .
DAVID: Well, because there's no ga-- in
fact, it's, it's designed by highly sophisticated
processes to not only appease to the eyes but to the
senses, to the desires of part of a fortified
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
*
35
breakfast. Yeah, well, they tell you to go ahead and
eat your fruit and everything else you normally eat too
and have a bowl of cereal, which --
JOHN-4: Yeah.
DAVID: -- the cereal in itself is nothing.
There's, there's -- it would -- you -- sure, they want
you to eat it all . They want you to be addicted to it
so you'll keep buying more of it. The same as Coca-
cola, the, the real thing. Pepsi. Well, the caffeine,
you get an addiction, you get a, you get a boost from
it . You know?
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: And it's just, it's just, it's just
-- hey, people are in bondage, in total bondage. Okay.
Well, what's God going to do about it? Well, the
merchants -- there's something we're warned about. But
f
there's also another merchandise which is far more
serious than the merchandise and the things that we
eat, and that is there's a religion that's a product.
And Babylon is called the great harlot. You know, a
harlot promises you affection, right? A harlot
promises --
JOHN- 4: For a price.
DAVID: -- you love for a night, right?
JOHN-4: For a price.
DAVID: Yeah. But, of course, the thing with
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
36
the harlot is is that once you pay for it you never get
it. You're left empty. There's more, there's more to
love than just the act of sex. There's more to love
than just the act of carnality. And the harlot leaves
you with nothing, just like the food. So, Christ
begins to tell us, you know --
JOHN-4: Some of them, some of them leave you
with something you've got to go see the doctor for.
DAVID: Well, that could be so too.
JOHN- 4 : (Laughter . )
DAVID: God does a lot of things --
JOHN- 4 : So, you can say it is -- in, in
effect, there's your receipt for sinning, you know?
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN- 4: You know.
DAVID: But there's a religion, there's a
*
religion too, that it has a beautiful building -- you
know, a harlot, she puts on makeup. She sings a pretty
song. You know, she does a pretty wild dance, you
know. Everything feminine is promoted therein and
highly exaggerated. So, like -- so, like a religion,
you've got stained glass windows. You've got beautiful
carpet, air conditioning. You've got a nice organ
music. You know, you've got, you've got the whole
display that totally tantalizes the senses. Peter says
that they will allure to the lust of the flesh, you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
know. You can't go by your senses in religion. You
can't, you can't judge your own heart. You've got to
learn what truth is.
JOHN-4 : Do you like organ music?
DAVID: In certain songs, yes, I do.
JOHN-4: Well, you know, I d-- I detest
church organ music.
DAVID: (Laughter.)
JOHN-4: I absolutely hate it. I --
DAVID: It depends on if they're using modern
organ music. I mean, you know --
JOHN-4: Yeah. But --
DAVID: But yeah, the old -- good old --
where the old lady sings --
JOHN-4: Organ -- yeah.
DAVID: (High singing.)
i JOHN-4: Organ solos -- I've got orders at my
funeral, no organ solos, you know. You know. If they
want to come in with a banjo, that's fine, but no organ
solos . You know?
DAVID: Are you planning, are you planning
for your funeral?
JOHN-4: Just the basic stuff, you know.
Actually, we, we have a trash service says they'll pick
anything up in a bag. I told my wife to save a few
bucks .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
38
DAVID: Listen to this. Listen to this guy.
God gave you a body, a life --
JOHN-4: It's just earthly --
DAVID: -- and you, and you --
JOHN- 4: -- clay.
DAVID: -- want to just -- you just want to
throw it away in the -- well.
JOHN-4: It's just earthly clay.
DAVID: Yeah. But, anyway, like I say, see,
me and you both agree, don't we?
JOHN-4: On what?
DAVID: That there's something wrong with the
churches of today.
JOHN-4: Well, some of them, undoubtedly.
You know?
DAVID: But there's nothing wrong with
sincerity --
JOHN- 4 : It's very
DAVID : - - though .
JOHN- 4 : -- very, very commercial.
DAVID: Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with
those who are sincere.
JOHN- 4 : Oh, no. No, nothing wrong with
sincerity. No.
DAVID: And that's what this great nation is
set up for.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
39
JOHN- 4 : It can be
DAVID : It's set up for --
JOHN-4: -- misguided, though, and
destructive.
DAVID: Oh --
JOHN- 4 : Then there's something wrong with
it.
DAVID: -- surely it can. But God's not
going to let any sincere person perish, though, even if
that person is sincerely deceived. The disciples were
sincerely deceived. But when sufficient evidence came,
they even denied the Lord when tested. But still they
were saved, weren't they?
JOHN-4: Um-hum. So, with that in mind, when
are you coming out of there?
DAVID: So, what happens is, is that if I am
*
sincerely deceived, then I'm at the mercy of you and
the mercy of my peers, and I'm consistently saying to
you, look, I've got this real reality that I'm dealing
with, and the reality is, is the fact that in all
honesty and in all soberness I have done all that I
have done based upon a very clear testament of
scripture and that I expect my nation, which is the
greatest in the world, to protect me and to provide for
me aid to assist me in evaluating my position with this
God that I am conferring with. So, all I've ever asked
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
40
from the beginning, since day one, is for -- and in all
sincerity -- for the wise, the teachers and the
scholars, those who point men to God, to converse with
me and to show me the seven seals so that I know that
they know them. Because, you see, if they know them,
then that means I'm wrong. Do you understand why?
JOHN- 4 : I think that they can probably
arrange that.
DAVID: Well, that's what we've been --
JOHN- 4 : But nobody's going to arrange
anything until you come out of there.
DAVID: Well, see, that's -- that, again, is
one of the problems.
JOHN- 4 : This, this could be a mechanism for
that type of audience.
DAVID: Yeah, but let me explain again. You
see^ I'm being told by my God to wait, and I've
received two messages, and I've sent both of these
messages out. Now, one thing I've always feared is
that, you see, in a vision -- a vision is a reality.
But when you come out of a vision, the wor-- this world
is a reality.
JOHN-4: Dave, I want to help you and I want
to help everybody in there, but I, I -- you know, in,
in my mortal mind, I, I think one of your fears is that
we're going to look behind the curtain.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
41
DAVID: No, no, no. I don't mind you -- I, I
-- in all means, please look behind the curtain. I
mean, I'm not afraid of you looking behind the curtain.
On the contrary, I, I would be more than happy for you
to look behind the curtain. You can look, you can look
this place over, anypla-- any -- well, any -- you can
look this place over every inch you want. You know,
you can dig, you can dig this place up and you can dig
a hundred feet deep around this place ten miles around.
That ' s not what I ' m concerned about . What I ' m
concerned about is that if you look behind the curtain
you might see that in the heavenly sanctuary there's a
God who really does sit on the throne. And I am stuck.
And that there are really seven seals.
JOHN- 4 : Why, why
DAVID : And it's right there for you to --
| JOHN-4: Why is a hundred --
DAVID : - - read .
JOHN- 4: Well, say, the sequence, what, what
is that perimeter, about 100 yards? What, what --if
you're stuck, are you stuck within 100-yard radius?
DAVID: No, no, no, no.
JOHN-4: When you say you're stuck - - I mean,
I'm talking to you --
DAVID: I am stuck in a -
JOHN-4: Humor me, because I'm just a mortal.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
\
• •
42
But, you know, if you come out of there, what -- how is
that going to alter this -- the great scheme or, or the
plan or whatever? I'm, I'm asking you to come 100
yards --
DAVID: Well, because, because, actually --
okay, let me back up now. Just look at me with your
eyes open, okay? There are seven seals, yes or no?
JOHN- 4 : I have no earthly idea.
DAVID: Well, then, what you need to do to
understand my position is just finding one of those
good books somewhere and read Revelation 4, 5, and 6.
Just whatever you get out of it .
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And, and you'll see there are seven
seals. Okay.
JOHN- 4 : Okay. Okay. But what the --
t
i DAVID: And you'll --
JOHN-4: -- heck does that got to do with you
coming out of there?
DAVID: Let, let me explain. Because the way
I received these seven seals, I received it from that
person who sits on that throne in heaven.
JOHN-4: Okay. But that, that's you. That's
(sic) directly affects you, right?
DAVID: Well, I wouldn't be here if it
didn't, John.
1
2
3
4
5
€
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
• #
43
JOHN- 4 : Okay. Well, how about the other
people in there, then?
DAVID: Well, the other people --
JOHN- 4: How about if they come out of there?
DAVID: -- where they're affected, and this
is I showed them what they saw out of Revelation 4, 5,
and 6.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And then I asked them, well, do you
know what these seals are? And they said, no. And,
so, I said, well, let me show you one or two of them,
and then I want you to go and talk to your teachers --
JOHN-4: Is -- well, is it, is it --
DAVID: -- and I want you to go talk to your
preachers and I want you to see what they can show you.
And they all went and they did so. That's one, one of
the-j things that I require for any of my students.
JOHN-4: Can, can God not communicate with
you outside of the building?
DAVID: Oh, definitely. He's going to.
JOHN-4: I don't know where the rub is. I
mean, the rub is you've got legal problems.
DAVID: No, no, no. See, I --
JOHN-4: And, and that's, that's, that's the
reality of the --
DAVID: Let
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
44
\
JOHN-4: -- situation out here.
DAVID: I'm not -- see, when it comes to my
obedience to what I am told by scripture, by God, it's
one and the same.
JOHN- 4 : God says don' t come out of the
building?
DAVID: He says to wait.
JOHN-4: Um-hum. Well, you can wait in the
slammer. You know?
DAVID: (Laughter.) Okay. See, John, there
JOHN-4: I mean, what is the difference --
DAVID: -- there are seven seals, John. Now,
remember, here, here, here's the way the --
JOHN-4: There's one slammer, Dave.
DAVID: Here's the -- (laughter) -- I have --
j JOHN- 4:
DAVID :
JOHN- 4 :
DAVID:
JOHN -4 :
DAVID :
Here's pragmatic.
JOHN-4 :
DAVID :
Yeah.
--no problem with that.
Be pragmatic, son.
It --
Humor me.
Hey, look. I'll, I'll be pragmatic.
There are seven seals.
Um-hum.
Now, I don't believe the Catholic
Church deserves all that money they're getting. I'm
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
45
\
sorry, but I just don't believe that.
JOHN-4: I'm not Catholic.
DAVID: Well, I'm not --
JOHN-4: But I know they're one of the
richest
DAVID: I don't m--
JOHN-4 : -- institutions in the world.
DAVID: I don't mind if you are, because some
of the best people that I have are Catholics, and
they're here.
JOHN - 4 : Um- hum .
DAVID: That's what their, their -- that's
what their church was. Remember, this is not a
denominational matter. It's a Christian matter. And
Christianity is very diverse.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
' DAVID: Okay. It's a, it's a people to
i
people thing, not, not a denomination thing.
Denominations, that's their problem.
(End of tape . )
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1
\
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
i
TAPE #217
4/13/93
A.M. - 2:41 A.M.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
\
(Tape #217)
JOHN- 4 : -- and they are, some of them.
I agree with you on that.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN- 4: We see eye
DAVID: So --
JOHN-4: --to eye on that.
DAVID: -- when I come along, I just simply
reap the harvest of all the honest and sincere.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: That's all -- that's my job.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. Now. So, I will challenge the
church by challenging their credentials, by saying, is
this not the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave
to him to show to his servants or are you one of his
servants? Well, then, show your people the seven
seals. Well, scholars have not readily agreed on --
well, we don't -- okay, then, well, let me show them.
So, I'll show them my credentials by showing them the
seven seals. And people go, wow, awesome, whoa, this
is m-- this is happening right now. Ooh, cool. You
know? And they're like blown away because it's right
there in the book and their eyes are opened to see for
the first time the perfect harmony of all that the
prophets have spoken in regarding to the last event of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
which they are now partaking of. Okay. Now. So, here
I am in this situation and, as you know in the
beginning, because of accusation and because of hearsay
or whatever, we was confronted in a situation to where,
you know -- well, like, in all due respect, there was
an agent who for two months I was communicating with
and giving studies to. Of course, he's out of the
picture right now. You know, his name's Robert
Gonzalez. And, you know, I really love this guy and
this guy knows what I showed him out of the book. And
all along I was showing him of the events which we're
now involved in. And here recently, you know, one of
the news reports, he, he's -- Robert's kind of upset
because, you know, he stated very clearly that he told
the, the ATF to avoid -- to abandon the raid. Of
course, you know -- well, anyway, I -- we won't get
t
intq that because we'll bring this all out in court.
But, but the keynote was is that even though that, that
Sunday morning, I, I last talked with Robert that
morning, I told him, I says, Robert, you know, these
things are happening and they're coming, and I didn't
learn that from a phone call, which you'll, you'll find
out in regards to the phone, you know, the phone being
bugged and all that. But, but I, I explained to him
about Nahum and everything, Zephaniah and Habakkuk and
the last events that we're to be involved in, and, and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
* •
4
the judgment of the, of the, of the world and, and, and
the mercy of God and the truth --
JOHN- 4 : Why, why would, why would the ATF
abort?
DAVID: Well, they would abort it because,
primarily, there was really no reason to raid us like
that. I mean, especially when I -- if, if I have a
charge against me, I mean, I jogged every morning every
day, all the way down to the end of this road and back.
I mean, I could have easily been picked up any, any
time.
JOHN- 4 : Yeah, but I understand they had a
search warrant also.
DAVID: Well, that would have been fine too,
because at least, at least in that respect they could
have arrested me, and then they could have just simply
-- well, we're going to go out there and search and,
and, fine, they can go and search. But, but the
problem of it was is that in the -- you know, like,
like I'm, I'm presenting now in, in the letter that
I'm, that I'm going to send out, you see --
JOHN-4: Yeah, how come, how come if you knew
they were coming you didn't just come out and meet them
and
DAVID : I did.
JOHN- 4: Whoa.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
DAVID: I did. I did. It's on the tape.
Look at the tape.
JOHN-4 : How come they got their asses shot
off like that?
DAVID : Huh?
JOHN-4: How come they got their asses all
shot up like that?
DAVID: Well, look at the tape. I'm -- I
came out on the, on the front porch --
JOHN-4: Why? But, I mean, where did all
that, where did all that frigging gunfire come from?
DAVID: Well, John, you know. You've seen
the tapes. Be honest now. Fo-- be honest. Here I am
JOHN-4: Well, you've got to help me out,
because I'm -- you know, I, I came in here just a
couple of weeks ago.
DAVID: Oh. Well, John, ask to review the --
those first tapes.
JOHN- 4 : Okay. All right.
DAVID: Okay? Here I am at the front door,
totally unarmed. My, my, my feet out on the front
porch, the, the, the door in my left hand, closing
JOHN -4 : Just -- I had to be
DAVID : -- behind me, my right hand up, and
the exact words that I hollered out, because they were
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
all bailing out of the, the, the back of the trailer.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And my, my exact words were, you
know, get back. There's women and children here.
Let's talk about this.
JOHN- 4 : Um- hum .
DAVID: And all of a sudden, as they're
coming around, you know, that, that shot was fired, and
it's right here in the, in the, in the door at the very
angle where m-- where I was, and that door kicked. And
at that point there, you know, I, I, I ju-- it's all on
tape. I know you' all have got that tape. Because I
saw the guys right across the street when I was out on
the front porch over there taping it .
JOHN-4: Um-hum. Did they -- I mean, they
really' caught it, though, I mean. I'd hate to be your
mailman and have my car backfire out there.
DAVID: Backfire?
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I mean, you know, do you
always have your windows manned like that?
DAVID: No. There was nobody, there was
nobody at the windows at that point. They were do--
well, people were just, you know, right in the middle
of -- actually, it was the beginning of study and stuff
like that.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
• , •
7
DAVID: But the point of it was is that if
Robert - -
JOHN- 4 : I -- you know, I heard
DAVID : -- Gonzalez
JOHN -4 : I haven't seen it, but I heard
there's a lot of holes in the vehicles out there. You
know, I just wonder where they came from. You know?
DAVID: Oh, well -- oh, now, let's, let's get
on the story now. So, what happened was, by, by Robert
Gonzalez going out and everything, and, and that alarm
going off and everything, you know, and those
helicopters flying up and stuff like that, I mean,
you've got to remember, people around here are
concerned because we've already told Robert Gonzalez
that we had had many threats against us. I mean, this
is also -- if you' all had been bugging our phones, you
know^ people for a long time, ever since 1986, '87, '88
-- I mean, like I say, there's a lot of people that
when I present the seals --
JOHN-4: Then your cult is not a turn-the-
other-cheek bunch?
DAVID: Oh. Let me say something. Sometimes
people don't understand the New Testament, and that's
how Catholicism killed millions. Christ said
pointblank to his disciples, he says, I sent you out
with neither purse nor script. Did you lack anything?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
And they said no. He says you took no sword. He said,
but now the days are coming when the son of man will be
delivered. Now, I say unto you if you don't have an
extra coat, buy one. If you don't have a script, get
one. If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy
one. And he says to the disciples, have you any
swords? Peter says, we have two. Christ says, it's
sufficient. And that's what they took out to
Gethsemane. And, remember, when Peter slayed -- tried
to cut off that Centurion and hit his ear, he was
really going for his head. Peter was a bad shot. But
Christ had already manifested three times that he had
power to destroy every one of those men. Humsiki
(phonetic) , Hashua of Nazareth, I am he, and also they
all fell backwards. Remember in the story?
JOHN-4: This is a very violent side, then,
f
of this cult then, right?
DAVID: Well, what happens is, is it's the
right to defend yourself, the right to defend yourself.
Now, if you understood the seven seals, which were
truths to be hereafter, you would understand that, that
there would have been no necessity for all of those
martyrs to die in the inquisition. Millions died for
trying to take hold of Hushin Jerome's (phonetic)
doctrine. Yes, for three -and-a -half years Christ
taught to turn the cheek, didn't he? But did anybody
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
perish? No. God forbid any of those apostles to
perish in that three-and-a-half year ministry. But
after the Jewish nation rejected Christ, well, what
happened? Well, on the day of Pentecost, very clearly,
people sold everything, didn't they? But there was a
man and woman named Ananias and Sapphiras (sic) , and
they went and sold their parcel of land and they got
more money than what they thought they would get. So,
they kept back some, didn't they? And they came and
laid the residue before the feet of Peter and they
said, you know, and Peter's says to the husband, you
know, is this all? And he says, yea. And then Peter
says to him, you have not lied to men. You've lied to
the Holy Ghost. And Christ struck him dead. And then
came Sapphiras. Then came his wife shortly afterwards,
not knowing what had happened. And Peter said did you
*
sellj your property for such-and-such a price? And she
said, yea. And he says, the feet of those who carried
your husband out are outside to carry you out, and the
Spirit struck her dead. Now, this shows that Christ
wants a pure church, doesn't it? Right? He doesn't
want liars. The prophet Zephaniah says that there will
come those who will be leaping on the threshold of
their master's house to fill their house with violence
and deceit . You know, God wants a pure church of
honest believers. And, true, the apostles allowed
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
10
themselves to be crucified and killed, as a memorial.
But the thing of it is is that I was on the front
porch. Everything was to be avoided because, as you
say, the prophecies are not in the Bible for men to
fulfill to their destruction, but to be forewarned so
that men might become wise unto God' s plan of
salvation. Like with John Kno-- like with John Cox --
not John Knox -- John Cox. I said to him, now, John,
in Psalms 2 the question is asked why do the heathen
rage. Now, the heathen don't know God. That's why
they're heathen. They just know what's natural, you
know, the way they're raised. So, the question is why
do the heathen rage and the people imagine vain things,
for the kings of the earth and the rulers take counts
together against the Lord and against his Anointed.
Now, if a person was to fight God, can they fight God?
j JOHN- 4 : Well, do you recommend that the
country arm themselves?
DAVID: The forefathers of the Constitution
in the Bill of Rights recommended the United States of
American citizens, or the Constitutional as citizens be
in their own right to defend themselves against any
tyrannical power that overruled the Democracy. In
other words, remember -- I realize today that we have
to modify it because this is a big nation, and not very
many people here are, are, are democratic. I mean,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
m ’•
ii
they're not, they're not for the democracy. They're
not for the republic. They're individuals. You know
what I mean? They're for their own gain.
JOHN-4 : Were you ever in the military?
DAVID: I never had a chance to be. I kind
of wish I had but, like I say, I, I got my training in
a little bit different way.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Back when I was pushing -- like I
say, I'm, I'm one of the kids, that I guess at my age
that was probably 1976, '77, I was 17, nothing was
happening then.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And my friends that went into like
the Marines and stuff?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
*
i DAVID: They just got fat.
JOHN-4: They got fat?
DAVID: Fat, yeah.
JOHN- 4: What, what -- too much
(indiscernible) or what?
DAVID: Well, no. What happens was it just
-- you know, it, it was not, it was not, it was not the
military then.
JOHN -4 : Why? Why? Do you know?
DAVID: I guess just because there was no
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
• •
wars.
JOHN-4: Hmm.
DAVID: But what happened was is I went on
into, into business.
JOHN- 4 :
Fat Marines? I can't believe it.
DAVID :
Yeah, Pat Hedrick and, and --
JOHN- 4 :
Maybe they're just fat people.
DAVID :
Well --
JOHN- 4 :
I can't pic--
DAVID :
Air Force is --
-- some went into the Air Force. The
JOHN- 4 :
Well, I can see a guy in the Air
Force getting fat as a hog.
DAVID:
Yeah. Well, after the --
JOHN- 4 :
But not in the Marine Corps.
DAVID:
f
-- the basic training is -- of
course, this is also something that's true. You admit
to it that, that probably -- how do you know, John?
JOHN- 4 :
I'm in my 50s.
DAVID :
Really?
JOHN- 4 :
Very early.
DAVID:
You -- good for fif-- well, okay.
When you was back in the Marines, they were to teach --
okay. There was a time back when kids got whippings,
right?
JOHN- 4 : Oh, yeah. Sure.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
13
DAVID: Now, today -- now, today, since the
'60s and the, and the hippies and all that, they don't
believe in that. I mean, those hippies of the '60s
grew up, didn't they?
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: In love children and smoking dope and
all that stuff and no discipline, you know, and they're
too cute to spank. There's a lot of brats today. But
there was a time when people were called sir. Now, my,
my dad, my stepdad, was one of those people that I
called: yes, sir; no, sir; yes, sir; no, sir. He
taught me that when a kid came into a group of adults,
that he weren't supposed to talk unless someone asked
you a question. He taught me that, when he used to say
-- he'd get me out in the morning, right? Well, in the
summertime. And he'd say, I'm going to work now and
/
whei^ I get home I want this yard cleaner than a Safeway
chicken.
JOHN-4: This sounds familiar.
DAVID: He meant it.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I did procrastinate maybe once or
twice.
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. But then you learned.
(Laughter.) It sounds like you --
DAVID: Hey, they, they would have called -
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
JOHN-4: -- you have had a similar
experience .
DAVID: They would have called it child
abuse .
JOHN- 4 : We call it discipline.
DAVID: Yeah. And I'm talking about welts
and I'm talking about stripes.
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: Now. Okay, so, what happens is, is
that I grew up with this respect for my adults, and
you'll find in my report cards they may not have been
good as far as scholastic but when it comes to
citizenship you'll find A-plus every year. Okay. Now,
but what happens is, is that, that was my -- my dad was
a Merchant -- had been a Merchant Marine and he had
been in the military and all that and he, he was just
r
--he wa-- we called him, we called him Rock. I mean,
the, the, the guy just -- this is the way it's done and
kids are going to be seen and not heard. And, so,
finally when I got to the ages of -- because I became
a, a -- you know, very athletic and very well-contained
and very, you know, very strong and very disciplined
in, in a lot of ways. And I didn't, I didn't go into
the drug scene. You know, friends that were into the
drugs, I didn't do that. I was into physical activity,
physical fitness and everything. That was my drug:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
• •
15
running, you know, isometrics, gymnastic type stuff.
And it's just like that, that was it, which is a lot of
physical and mental discipline. Okay. So, what
happened was is that --
JOHN-4: So, you were just like everybody
else, then.
DAVID: No. I was just exactly opposite.
So, when my friends --
JOHN- 4 : All my friends were into it. You
said, you know, athletics and isometrics and running,
and it sounds like the group I hung out with.
DAVID: Well, so, you know, you know what
it's like after you ran five miles and you run the last
75 yards, 100 yards with all you've got?
JOHN- 4 : I used to run eight. Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. So, the thing of it is, the
thing of it is, you know what that high, awesome
sensation of physical being when you lift weights and
everything is?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: Because some people never experienced
that. So, I had friends that smoked and wanted to go
out and drink and things like that. And, okay, so --
okay, so, I tried a little bit of it. It, it made me
feel like I was confined and boxed in.
JOHN- 4: Um-hum.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
DAVID: I like to play a sport and I like to
be able to have my heart pounding out of my chest, my
lungs working hard, without the faint feeling. I like
to have my mind open, my perceptions open, you know, to
where I can play and participate with full senses in
what I ' m doing .
JOHN- 4 : That sounds like
DAVID : And that's what's real.
JOHN-4: It sounds like any other athlete
I've ever been with.
DAVID: Okay. But my other friends, they
weren't like that. And, so, as, as, as --
JOHN-4: You might -- you had some strange
friends .
DAVID: Well, no, come on. I -- my, my
generation is the --
*
/j JOHN-4: That's the --
DAVID: -- is the, is the later '70s.
JOHN- 4: Oh. Oh, okay.
DAVID: Remember --
JOHN-4: Okay. So, we
DAVID : -- I'm only 33.
JOHN- 4 : Okay. So, you're -- you've got,
you've got my generation between yours, but you grew up
in a different generation because --
DAVID: Yeah. You know, here I am, 16, 17
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17
years old, and my -- and, and my dad's telling me what
I can and can't do. Here, here I am at, at 13 years
old having a birthday and my mom whips me in front of
my friends.
JOHN- 4 : Hard to take.
DAVID: Well, but, but you just take it. But
the thing of it is, now, my other friends, you know, my
mother was young and my dad was older, but my, my other
friends, oh, they, they could go in the store when they
wanted to, they got allowances for emptying the
garbage. I got nothing for emptying the garbage.
JOHN- 4 : Well, they use to feed me for
emptying the garbage.
DAVID: Well, okay. That's what it is.
JOHN- 4 : We had a -- you know those furnaces
that you have to shovel coal in?
i DAVID: No, we didn't have that.
JOHN-4: And then -- see, I really date
myself, right? So, shovel coal. And then what do you
have to do? Well, it fills up with ashes. You have to
empty the ashes out. So, yeah, we had a lot of stuff
to do around the house, and, and we got fed for it.
DAVID: It's not -- it's -- and it's -- and,
and you learned to respect that?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I remember one time that my
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
18
granddad came over and he gave me 10 bucks, and it took
me two weeks -- but he gave -- now, this is back
probably in '70-- '75, something like that, maybe '74.
We tore down a bam and they wanted to use the lumber
for construction.
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: And I had to de-nail all this lumber.
And two weeks of work, and I'm talking about I put at
least
anywhere from four to six hours
a day in
this,
and he
gave me 10
bucks .
JOHN-4 :
Um-hum.
DAVID :
Now, back then that
was a lot
of
money .
JOHN- 4 :
Yeah.
DAVID :
And --
JOHN-4 :
Did you ever clean
bricks?
i
DAVID :
No, I never did that.
JOHN -4 :
Yeah, they take --
DAVID:
But --
JOHN- 4 :
-- antique bricks,
you know,
and the
-- when they destroy the building?
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN-4: Sit there -- you sit there with a
brick hammer. You clean bricks --
DAVID: (Indiscernible) .
JOHN- 4 : -- and you stack them. It reminds
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
ne -- your barn thing reminds me of that, just -- I was
wandering through my past. Go ahead, Dave.
DAVID: Yeah, but, you know -- okay, I'm
saying that -- okay. What appeared to be my hardship
was actually a blessing for me, and I learned -- I
you know, my dad
JOHN -4 : I don't think that's a hardship,
though. I think it's just work for a young man.
DAVID: Well, if you have other influences
saying what, you mean you can't come out? You, you
still go to do that?
JOHN- 4 : Dm-hum.
DAVID: You know. Aw, man --
JOHN-4: Well, that's your perception --
DAVID: You need --
JOHN- 4: -- though.
*
i DAVID: Huh?
JOHN-4: That's your perception.
DAVID: Yeah, but I'm saying that when you
have kids of your age saying, you need to tell your
parents to cram it, clown. You know, this is a, a, a
temptation and the reality. But the thing of it was,
when I did rebel to some degree and I went out with my
friends, you know, well, mom, I'm going over to so-and
bo' s house, but really we're going out to the lake,
right? You know, that kind of stuff?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
20
JOHN- 4 : Urn-hum. Well, I have boogied till I
almost went nuclear, you know?
DAVID: Nuclear?
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I mean, boogie, boogie,
boogie. Boogie till you puke. You know? You know,
all, all work and no play makes John a dull boy. You
know?
DAVID: Well, I never really boogied till --
played till I'm -- boogied till I played. Anyway, but
the reason was -- is that the time came when -- okay,
my friends, they were all driving around, you know,
what, we were like 15, 16, whatever, and these guys
whip out this alcohol, you know. And, so there they
are. And I started working out at 11 years old, is
when I first got my first Sears and Roebuck's weights,
at 11 years old. And, so, by the time I was 14, 15, I
was -like, you know -- at school, like I was the fastest
kid in school and all that kind of stuff, and the
Presidential Physical Fitness award, I, I, I could do
all that stuff, you know, no problem, and, you know --
JOHN-4 : Who was president then?
DAVID: When it first started, I think
Richard Nixon.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I think that was, what, in
fourth, fifth grade?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
JOHN- 4 : Okay.
DAVID: Fourth grade. Fourth grade. Yeah.
So, so, Richard Nixon, of course, you know, all those
things, you know, I could do. There was no problem and
stuff. And I just -- I -- that was when I learned -- I
began to become physically and spiritually aware of my
being. And, so, when I first get this strange
sensation of being intoxicated by this, you know, few
drinks of alcohol and stuff like that, it's like, you
know, what's, what's wrong with my body? You know.
And it became a, it became a repulsive thing. Later
on, there's always that day when everyone in, in school
in my generation was out smoking pot. I mean, that was
the thing. They were -- you know, we had an open
campus at school and everyone was like -- the big thing
was to smoke a joint during break or during lunch on
f
the .open campus.
JOHN - 4 : Um- hum .
DAVID: You know, the pigs ain't going to do
nothing to me and this kind of thing. And, finally,
you know, as, as, as a human being, so to speak, in
this world, you know, say no to drugs, you know,
finally, I -- you know, okay, well, I'll try some of
that, and it was just like -- it was so repulsive
because it takes away the confinements of reasoning.
It makes you feel like something's creeping up on top
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
22
)
of you and, and now you have no control. An athlete is
a person that is, is, is strictly driven by his
physical relationship to his perceptions and to his,
you know, senses, you know, your agility, your, your,
your stamina, your -- you know, you got a -- you're
like, you're like monitoring yourself in your
performance. And, so, this, this is what kept me away
from, from all of this kind of crap.
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: But on the other hand, when it comes
to the perception of the meaning of God, you know, if
you, if you want to do good, why? How come I want to
do good and my cousins and my brother and everyone else
wants to do bad? How come I can't go out and find a
group that wants to do good that's not dorky. Now,
okay, so, I tried to --
*
/j JOHN- 4 : Geez, you know, I've got a friend
that's a professional baseball pitcher --
DAVID: Uh-huh?
JOHN-4: -- who is, is, you know -- has some
of those values you're talking about, you know, and
he's not dorky. You know? He's head of the youth
group in my church. And, you know, it's just an
example of some -- what you're talking about.
DAVID: Um-hum.
JOHN-4: A very clean-living guy.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
DAVID : Right .
JOHN- 4 : He's in the majors. And, you know,
he's a good example for kids because he's not dorky.
But, you know, unless somebody has that position, some
kids think yeah, he's a dorky guy because he's
religious, you know.
DAVID: Like I said, true religion is true
education. I mean, what true religion is supposed to
be is an explanation of the sciences, of knowledge,
technology, everything in its proper and true purest
form. In other words, the ultimate reality is to sit
before God and say God, how did you make the sun?
JOHN-4: I got --
DAVID: And, of course, you don't want to
lie.
JOHN- 4 : A minor
DAVID : You don't want to steal.
i
JOHN-4: -- a minor reality is this problem
here, right?
DAVID: Well, actually, this is more of a
major reality in the respect that -- okay. In all
respects, we're subject here to severe penalties.
JOHN-4: That possibility exists.
DAVID: Oh, it's, it's a reality, of which,
you know, I would not --
JOHN-4: Well, severe penalties -- I don't
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
24
• > •
know if -- that's a defeatist attitude. I mean, that's
why you have attorneys and so forth.
DAVID: Well, no, no, no. Wait a minute now.
Even that
JOHN -4 : And I'm not trying to lessen it. I
mean, what's going to be will be.
DAVID: Even that itself is a punishment,
because these guys require high dividends for their so-
called protection of the innocent. But, again,
remember if I was on my own -- I mean, if I had cooked
up this religion. If I had any, any evil -- like you
say, if you looked behind the curtain and there I was
-- right?
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: And that's all there is is just me
behind the curtain, right? Oh, man. I'm in big
trouble, and I have no one to help me.
JOHN-4: That, that is a real possibility.
DAVID: Yeah. Okay. But that's not the
case.
JOHN- 4: Okay.
DAVID: On the contrary. On the contrary,
what I do teach, I do know how I received it. And what
I do know, I do know how I learned it. And when I was
younger, I ran and I worked out and I, I found out
that, first, that 65 pounds was heavy and finally 65
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
25
pounds became something that was, you know, lifted in
one arm --
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: -- 20 times and 30 times reps, you
know.
JOHN-4: Yeah, but that's just like everybody
else in the world.
DAVID: Exactly. And that's, that's, that's
-- and if you, if you are willing to deal with the
pain, you will get the gain.
JOHN- 4: Sure.
DAVID: No pain, no gain.
JOHN- 4 : You can't hardly even get in the
frigging -- I'm going to work out tomorrow when I get
off the job, you know?
DAVID: Do a little running?
- } JOHN- 4 : Sometimes the place is so crowded --
I lift weights and do a little running -- you know,
that I can't get in there. So, you know, this is not
unique. It's the norm, the social norm, at least in
that group, you know.
DAVID: Exactly. But when I was in Israel --
JOHN-4: I was going to try to say you're
very normal
DAVID: Yeah --
JOHN-4 :
very average.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
DAVID: Thanks, but I wish we could have met
each other out fishing somewhere and talked about this
instead of, you know, somewhere -- what angle we're
looking at it from right now. Because where you're
looking at it, you're, you're talking to a cult leader
and, of course, you know, you expect me to say anything
I can to lessen that presentation. And I'm talking to
you as a Federal agent who's going to say any and
everything you can to, to try to lessen my position.
But, of course --
JOHN-4: What, you know, what I'm trying to
do is, is bring a pres-- peaceful resolution and, you
know, the reality of that is you come out of there.
DAVID: Well, that's -- I agree with that. I
-- and I, and I wholeheartedly adhere to that. But,
again *-
*
-• JOHN-4: Is, is -- let me ask you something,
because I
DAVID : I'm reasoning with your perceptions
by saying -- I'm saying this -- I'm saying, now, John,
if God does sit on a throne, if God did give me a book
and reveal to me clearly beyond any shadow what the --
JOHN-4: If, if that's a fact --
DAVID: -- seven seals are
JOHN -4 : -- if that's a fact, and, and, you
know, and, and, and I were you in there, I'd come out
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
?
27
of there in a New York minute.
DAVID: Now, but here's the --
JOHN- 4 : Because I got the world --
DAVID: Now, wait -- now, now --
JOHN-4: -- I got the world by the ass.
DAVID: Now, wait a minute. Because here's
the thing. If God gave it to me, I received it from
God and the instruction came from God, and that's where
I am subject to God. I'm not subject to anybody but
God. If I --
JOHN-4: Would, would he, would he not
forgive you if you came about 200 yards?
DAVID: That's not the question. The
question is, is that I obey explicitly his counsel.
It's not a question of him forgiving me. You don't
willfully tempt God. You don't step over and say,
t
well-, God, I'm going to do it this way because maybe
you'll forgive me. Absolutely not.
JOHN-4: What if you said please?
DAVID: Okay. Here is the thing. Here is
the position to where what is serious to me about life
and death is not serious to you. And it's right there
in your book. It's right there every Sunday when you
go to church. It's right there in the Bible, a
Revelation of your Lord and Savior. Now, you want him
to be obedient to the Father so that through his
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
28
righteousness he can save you. Right? Right. And
you're asking him to go against his Father to adhere to
you, which would make him equal to you and both of you
will go to hell? God requires obedience. Now, in the
letters that I sent out recently -- remember those
letters?
JOHN-4: I saw one of them.
DAVID: Okay. It talks about the earthquake.
JOHN-4: That's about you're going to throw
some lightning bolts or something.
DAVID: No, no, no, no. Remember, each one
of those are passages from your Bible. Forget it being
from me. Those are testaments from the prophets who
say: God said.
JOHN-4: Someone
DAVID: Now --
- JOHN-4: -- ought to buy some fire insurance.
DAVID: Exactly. So, now, when Revelation
says this mystery of God will be finished when there's
time no longer as God has declared to his servants the
prophets, remember, if we do not take heed to the
warnings and accept the salvation God gives to us in
truth, then we're going to receive the penalties.
We're not only doing despite (sic) to the word, to
Christ, we're doing despite to God on the throne.
We're sticking our tongue at God saying, thhh (noise) .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
JOHN-4: Let me ask you something.
DAVID: Sure.
29
JOHN-4: Since, you know, you're -- I'm not
well-versed in what you're talking about, but do you
believe that God spoke to Oral Roberts?
DAVID: Absolutely not.
JOHN-4: He got several million dollars doing
that .
DAVID: I know. But that's why, that's why
I've never followed those avenues and never will.
JOHN- 4 : Well, how -- why should I believe
you versus Oral Roberts?
DAVID: Exactly. A good question. Why
should you? I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm
asking you to look and see for yourself.
JOHN-4 : Do you remember what God said to
Ora?j Roberts?
DAVID: Something about if he didn't get so
many millions he'd take him to heaven?
JOHN-4: That's extortion.
DAVID: Hey, well, you know something?
JOHN- 4 : We have cases like that every day.
People
DAVID: NASA -- the --
JOHN- 4 : -- drop the -- drop 10,000 bucks in
a trash can at the corner of 14th and T or we'll kill
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
30
you.
DAVID: Well, it's like this --
JOHN-4: You know, we didn't think God would
resort to that.
DAVID: (Laughter.)
JOHN- 4 : I don't think he needs the money
anyhow.
DAVID: I answer people that -- when they
present the question to me in this wise, I say look,
NASA has spent billions to get to the moon. And this
guy could have gotten past Orion on millions, he should
have taken it. He should have taken it.
JOHN-4: I think, you know, that -- in a, in
a layman's -- in the most pragmatic way, just, you
know, philosophizing, if I were God I would say David,
go out there and face that. Show them. You know, you
*
cou^d ironically be David with Goliath, you know.
DAVID: (Laughter.)
JOHN-4: Because the Government's large, you
know. It's large.
DAVID: Well, you know what Isaiah says --
JOHN-4: I can't understand why he's --
DAVID: -- about my position --
JOHN-4: -- why he's telling you to sit on
your hands in there.
DAVID : Huh?
31
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
JOHN-4: I can't understand why you're being
told to sit on your hands in there.
DAVID: Well, I'm not. There's actually
things that are taking place that are very serious in
behalf of everybody's for-- fare-- farewell-- welfare.
Remember, when Isaiah says the Lord God will come with
a strong hand, his reward is with him, he's talking
about Christ, right? Christ brings his reward, the
book with seven seals. It says he'll gather his flock
like a shepherd. Right?
JOHN-4: Urn -hum.
DAVID: And it says, behold, the nations are
a drop of a bucket and are counted as a small dust of
the balance. His (indiscernible) the nations is a very
little thing. So, in other words, Isaiah states that
at the time of the, of the revealing of the seals that
the ^national or the nations combine together, that
their opinions and their decisions will be exactly what
all the prophets say in regards to God's will being
against their will. In Psalms 2, clearly, the prophet
foresaw that the heathen would rage and they would
imagine vain things saying, you know, about God and
la-- and, and the Anointed One, which is the lamb, let
us break their bands asunder and cast their cords from
us. Well, what they're avoiding is, is they're
avoiding the connection between the lamb and the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
32
Father, which is tied by those seven seals. You see,
if a person learns the seven seals, then they'll be
bound to God through his word, which through prophecy
God had made heaven and earth by his word, also by the
word that he go to the prophets foretells what will be
when there's time no longer. Why it will be and how it
will be. Those who refuse to hear the prophets refuse
to hear Christ, who said woe unto you that believe not
all that the prophets have spoken.
JOHN- 4 s Um-hum.
DAVID: And if God chooses to hide it in a
mystery, then when there's time no longer the subject
of the seals will be proclaimed as a final message of
invitation of salvation for a nation who's to be
judged. Now, my position, again, is this. If it's
true that the heathen are raging and they're not
t
regarding --
JOHN-4: Is --
DAVID: -- the seven seals, let us break his
bands asunder. How many bands are there? Seven.
JOHN-4: Dave, does God listen to prayer?
DAVID: Well, if we pray to God according to
his spirit, he listens to us. Now, but here's the
problem. In the seventh seal in heaven, Christ reveals
himself at the altar and he offers the final prayers
before the Father before he casts the censor to earth.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
\
Now, when he comes with his book, it's time for man to
listen to God's prayers. It's time for you to listen
to the seven seals.
JOHN- 4 : But, but
DAVID : Because all you're going to be
praying for is Father, give me food, give me money,
give me security, give me grace, give me strength to
overcome, protect my family, protect my kids, which
naturally God --
JOHN- 4 : No, I, I haven't really prayed for
that .
DAVID: Well, naturally God provides those
things anyway for us.
JOHN-4: If you work.
DAVID : (Laughter . )
JOHN-4: But, but, you know, does he listen
to prayer? You know, I'm asking you as a theologian,
because I'm not a theologian. I'm a fairly ignorant
person when it comes to theology.
DAVID: Well, God states if we pray to God
according to his will he hears us, and we've got to
know what his will is.
JOHN-4: Because I, I heard on the news
before I came on tonight there's a church praying that
you come out of there and everybody, you know, makes it
out okay.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
34
DAVID: Well, that's what everybody --
JOHN- 4 : And I was just wondering --
DAVID: -- wants.
JOHN- 4 : Well, that's not anybody praying for
anything personal. That's praying for an unknown
person, you know. And I know that's -- there's a lot
of people in this country are doing that. And that's
why I was wondering if God listens in or are they
peeing in the wind? You know?
DAVID: No. God never turns away any sincere
heart. That's the whole principle of the, of the --
of, of the gospel, the New Testament. And, remember,
as I said before, what is serious to me is the fact
that I explained very clearly to people that prophecy
is the testimony of Jesus Christ. When the lamb comes
again, he's to reveal the seven seals, and those seals
are prophecies very clearly written by the prophets
i
proclaiming what is to be done by God and when it is to
be done. Now, a person says to me, well, David, what
do you think is going to happen? It don't make no
difference what David thinks. What makes the
difference is what does God think. My name is not,
biologically, David Koresh. On the contrary. Jacob's
name was changed by God
JOHN -4 : It was Vernon Howell.
DAVID: Vernon Howell.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
)
JOHN- 4: Did you ever see Jim Varney do that,
Hey, Vern?
DAVID: Vernon Wayne Howell. That's about
as, as country as you can get, isn't it, boy?
JOHN- 4 : It's a good, it's a good name to
take to Nashville.
DAVID: Yeah. Okay. So, so, Abram's name
was changed to Abraham by God. Sarai was changed to
Sarah. You know, Moses had a name change. Jacob had a
name change as well. I mean, why does God change
people's name for? Because --
JOHN- 4: That's show business, I guess.
DAVID: When he -- (laughter) -- when he
brings them to a knowledge of his will --
JOHN-4: In a (indiscernible) --
DAVID: -- they're willing to do his will.
5 JOHN- 4 : Do you know what Bing Crosby's real
name was?
DAVID: What?
JOHN-4: Harry Lilly (phonetic).
DAVID: Possibly.
JOHN-4: Really. No, it's true. No, a lot
of people
DAVID : Well, Bing Crosby wasn't teaching the
seven seals, was he?
JOHN- 4: I don't think so.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
36
\
DAVID: But he sang pretty good, though.
JOHN- 4: Yeah. Yeah. I, I personally don't
-- I hate Bing Crosby. I can't stand his music. It's
too depressing. You know, I don't like big band. I
don't like any of that stuff. I like '50s and '60s
rock and a little bit of country western.
DAVID: Well, do you like Randy Travis?
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. He's okay. Yeah.
DAVID: I like him.
JOHN-4: I don't, I don't get a pure steady
diet of that, you know, but -- you know, he's all
right. You know. I, I, I cannot abide rap. How you
feel about rap? I know you got some musical talent .
DAVID: Well, some people have said that I'm
one of the hottest guitar players in the nation.
JOHN- 4 : You ought to get out more.
(Laughter. )
DAVID: (Laughter.) Thanks.
JOHN-4 : Those people ought to get out more
too.
DAVID: Maybe we should have some jailhouse
rock, right?
JOHN- 4: Yeah. I got a niece and nephew down
in Nashville breaking in the business. Boy, the
competition down there is incredible.
DAVID: I can imagine. Well, I -- you know.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
I went to L. A. and stuff, and I pulled out of it
because the majority of people that, that wanted to
play with me and stuff didn't have the, didn't have the
vision down. It'B -- you know, I never, I never --
JOHN-4: Just musical talent, no vision?
DAVID: Well, what I'm saying is you get a,
you get a false picture in Hollywood area, and that is
that, that --
JOHN- 4 : Oh, I know that. I've been there a
few times, you know. It's --
DAVID: Yeah. It's --
JOHN-4: You know, that's not reality, I
don't believe.
DAVID: It's, it's, it's -- like I said, it's
show business. And some people don't leave the show at
the theater. They bring it out into public.
/ JOHN-4: You've got it. They start believing
their own bullshit, their own --
DAVID: Basically.
JOHN-4: -- press clippings.
DAVID: And, so, you know, it's, it's
something to where --
JOHN-4: They live in a, in a, in an
illusion.
DAVID: Right. And, so, the reason why I
pulled out was because the --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
38
JOHN-4: You looked, you looked behind their
curtain, didn't you?
DAVID: Well, not only that. It was a
problem I was having with my own students. I mean, I,
I obtained some pretty good musicians and I -- you
know, but when they, when they saw the visions and
everything, they, they, they had this natural problem
with the pride of, of exposure, the, the prestige of
fame, you know. It's like -- the story is, is that
yes, you can take Israel out of Egypt, Moses
accomplished that, but it's hard to get Egypt out of
Israel. So, you know, you don't want to say something
and then have to destroy it later, so to speak. You
know what I mean? You don't want to, you don't want to
start your walk of salvation and have the salvation
destroy you through spiritual pride. And, so, like I
r
saic^, I, I told my students, I says, look --
JOHN-4: Like shutting yourself off?
DAVID: Well, for instance, when, when I
would go to the clubs, I'm in there looking for souls.
I'm in there looking for people that have a question
and, and they're frustrated because they don't have a
clear answer.
JOHN- 4 : You know what I used to look for in
those clubs?
DAVID: I do-- I
don't tell me.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
39
JOHN-4: Don't tell you? Okay. I won't.
DAVID: Probably not looking for souls.
JOHN-4: No. Uh-uh. Of course, that's when
I was single, you know.
DAVID: And, so, you know, the, the point of
it is is that, you know, a lot of churches shoot me
down for that. But, of course, again, like I say,
Christ is accused of being a friend of publicans and
harlots, wasn't he?
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: He went to their parties.
JOHN-4: I didn't know he went to their
parties .
DAVID: Why don't you read Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John?
JOHN-4: Because I don't have a lot of time
to do that.
j
DAVID: Well, see, it's, it's, it's something
that the service and the cares of this life are
overcoming you.
JOHN- 4 : I've got this job. You know?
DAVID: You've got this job, right?
JOHN-4: I've got a job. Yeah. Yeah. I did
take some writing courses one time in night school, but
that was a, a luxury. We - -
DAVID: Well
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
40
JOHN-4: -- we keep weird hours, as you're.
as you're finding out.
DAVID: Ah, I'm keeping them with you.
JOHN-4: (Laughter.) You've got a point
there. Yeah.
DAVID: But, of course, I've got a 24 -hour a
day alarm clock.
JOHN- 4: Uh-huh.
DAVID: When my body finally says, ah, no
more, you got to pass out. I have the weirdest dreams
of being swarmed by bees, being locked up in the pogy.
I've given more sermons in the jailhouse in my dreams
the past -- you know.
JOHN-4: Um-hum. Maybe -- what does that
mean? Does it mean -- do dreams mean anything?
DAVID: Well, there's definitely hope.
#•
Dreams comes with the mu-- to the business, but visions
are not dreams. They're totally different. But dreams
are definitely the wandering of the mind.
JOHN- 4 : Psychologists say it's a good way to
relieve stress, that it's a necessary way to relieve
stress.
DAVID: Yeah. But --
JOHN-4: And that even, even -- we dream
every night, or every time we sleep, but we don't have
memory of a lot of it.
41
• >
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
DAVID: Right. You know, I, I tried to talk
to, to our attorneys in regards to every legal aspect,
and we were basically satisfied except on a couple or
three points, which we're -- we were rewriting certain
things, you know, certain things that we, we were
sending out, of which, I guess, tomorrow I'll be
presenting that to, to the attorney.
JOHN- 4 : Yeah. He's going to be here in the
morning, I understand.
DAVID: Right.
JOHN-4: And he'll, and he'll be calling.
Yeah. So, you guys probably won't have a sit-down?
DAVID: But he kept, he kept, he kept stating
in the beginning --he kept saying, well, you know,
we'll get out on the -- and I kept saying, you know --
JOHN-4: Don't, don't tell me about any legal
defense stuff, okay?
DAVID: Oh, I'm not. I'm not.
JOHN-4: Okay.
DAVID: No, it's -- you know, that's, that's
all secured. But the thing of it is is that I kept
explaining to him that -- you know, I said one thing
that, that no one wants to understand is the importance
of the seals in the respect that if I do know these
seals, and if --
JOHN-4: You know, he's thinking about your
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
42
butt in court, you know?
DAVID: I know. But, see, he doesn't realize
that he's going to stand in court and that -- see, the
judgment of the living does not take place when you go
to heaven.
JOHN- 4: I know. But he's trying to han--
handle the immediate business.
DAVID: Exactly. Which could cause him the
loss of his soul.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: You do not --
JOHN-4: Well, he might -- you know, some of
the, some of the attorneys I know would go for that one
to win a case. I think they have a few times. You
know what I mean?
DAVID: Yeah, I know. It's, it's -- the
legal game is a game.
JOHN-4: I think it's true in just about any
business, Dave. You know? There's a lot of people
that
DAVID : Except in my business.
JOHN-4: -- you know, selling their souls for
what they consider success, you know.
DAVID: Right. Well, I never sold my soul
for rock and roll, that's for sure.
JOHN- 4: Um-hum.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
43
DAVID: And as far as people asking me about
my financial status and stuff like that, my financial
status is something that is the most unique and clear
and easy-cut and biblical status there is, and that is
you'll find that my possessions are co-owned. And
that's something you can't say for preachers and
ministers .
JOHN- 4 : Um-hum.
DAVID: No. You see, but that -- you know,
they've got their own bank accounts --
JOHN-4: And joint titles, Dave.
DAVID: Exactly. And this way I become more
of a, of a product. I become, I become a -- something
owned by the people and owned by those who have a right
any and all times to, to controvert or to, to take any
and all things of which are positionally given to me
*
or, jor used by me. There was one time when a person --
actually, a person bought me a new car. And I - - what
year was that? That was -- well, because I was -- you
know, like I said, I've always, I've always drove
things that I've tinkered and, and, and, you know, mo--
either motorcycle or, or Borne old car. And this person
bought me a, a Honda Prelude. You ever seen the
Preludes?
JOHN- 4: Yeah, I have.
DAVID: I think that this was a -- what year
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
44
was that? Was that '70-- no, that was a '86, '87?
JOHN- 4 : Urn-hum.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: '87.
DAVID: '87 model. And, of course, you know,
I -- you know, I -- you know -- na, na, na. But,
anyway -- but the thing was, was that I tried to get on
the highway with it one time out in Los Angeles --
JOHN-4: Yeah. Well, that's dangerous in
itself. You know.
DAVID: And, and it felt like it was powered
by a rubber band. It was not an FI . It was a --
JOHN- 4: Yeah.
DAVID: -- it was a real -- it was real ni--
you know, it was -- definitely, you could go to sleep
driving it, but it was -- you couldn't hear it run, you
know. -It had a great stereo in it, a cold air
conditioner, which I never used air conditioning
anyway .
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
DAVID: I turned it on once or twice just to
-- say, because I
JOHN -4 : Where, where are you from
originally?
DAVID: I was born in Houston, Texas.
JOHN-4: Oh, okay. So, you're used to the
heat. Yeah.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
ie
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
46
i
cents .
would,
See how old I am? And that thing, it, it
it would run on fumes for about four miles,
I
think .
DAVID : Yeah, well --
JOHN-4: Yeah. That was a great car. It was
about a 30-- 35, 36 miles a gallon to --
DAVID: Yeah, well, see --
(End of tape . )
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
1
TAPE #218
4/13/93
2:41 A.M. - 3:26 A.M.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
(Tape 218)'
DAVID KORESH: -- Volkswagen. I used to
drive one of those, too.
JOHN: You don't drag race with them.
DAVID KORESH : No .
JOHN: You've got to build your RPM's, yeah.
DAVID KORESH: In this Prelude, you'd like
have it to the floor, you know, and it's a four-speed,
you know. Automatic, this is an automatic, and it
would shift all the way down and go rmmmm, rmmmm,
rmmmm. And it would be like -- It would, it would
speed up, but it wouldn't go no faster.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: And you'd be -- have a guy
trying to run you off the road and stuff. And so I
said w£ll, I'm going to work something out. We're
goirfcg to buy an old Camaro and, and I'm going to make
it -- Some of the guys, we're going to talk about, you
know
JOHN : The older cars got mils in them, you
know.
DAVID KORESH: Got what?
JOHN: They've got real mils in them,
engines .
DAVID KORESH: Oh, yeah. Well, see, I used
to build high performance engines anyway.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
)
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: My uncle used to drag race.
JOHN: Oh.
DAVID KORESH: And, as a matter of fact, the
black Camaro that's out here, that I finally did
finish, you know, it's, it's built with a 427 in it.
JOHN: Wow.
DAVID KORESH: And that engine there was --
it's got, it's got the Merlin (phonetic sp.) heads, and
the way that that was ported and everything and the way
the carburetion -- I used the new Holly system on it
which has the -- And it's got better palinium (phonetic
sp.) mixture in it. It's got the open Ford jets on
them, instead of like the, the more dramatic closed
narrow Holly ones, and it's a Holly but it's fashioned
as a as the way the old Fords used to have theirs,
which --
i
JOHN: It'll scoot.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. What happens is the
atomization of it breaks up really fast, the top of the
thing, before it even goes through the palinium. And
so that Camaro there --
JOHN: What's the palinium?
DAVID KORESH: Huh?
JOHN: What's the palinium?
DAVID KORESH: The palinium is the, the two
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
levels of the, of the manifold which -- See, you have
to equalize your, your tunnels between where the fuel
and air mixes in the manifold, intake manifold.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And when that mixes, it has to
go to each one of your cylinders --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: -- and your, and your
cylinders are not at the same distance to where your
carburetor
JOHN: Right.
DAVID KORESH: -- you know, butterfly intake
JOHN: Oh, okay. The pressure gets it to all of
them equally.
DAVID KORESH: And so, and so you have to
f
equalize it so the, so the palinium allows areas and
ports to be able to mingle throughout the casting of
the manifold, to where it finally equalizes every and
all intake. Just like on headers, the actual theory of
headers is, is you need the same length of pipe before
it gets into the collector, right? So you get this
header and it's like the pipes are bent really funny.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Because, you know, that's
where you get your equal, your equal exhaust pressure,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
«
which helps balance out the overall pressure of the
engine. You've got your entering crank case for
pressures and everything conversant with your, your
exhaust pressures and, you know, you need to equalize.
So that's why they get, you know, like the, the dual
and the -- and all the hooker and headers that are
really expensive, have this equal tubing that goes up
your collector into your, into your manifold. Now,
they, they put a cross-over tube to not only equalize
your, your right and left side of the bank of your
engine, but also to equalize the final exhaust to the
right and left sides of the, of the, of the exhaust
pipes .
And turbos, you know, they, they don't use
open exhaust ' cause that helps the engine to become
static. You need a little bit of back pressure on your
*
engihe, because, otherwise, it's kind of like it comes
up to exhaust -- If you use like a 202 valve on a, on a
small block, you know, the pressure's being expelled to
become almost zero. And that kind of like -- It's like
you're leaning up against the door, right, trying to
push the door? Then all of a sudden it opens up and
you just fall out, right?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Okay, that's what happens with
your engine. You need a little bit of exhaust pressure
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
)
there to balance out the cycle.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: And it helps the engine have
more power. If somebody says -- give you more power,
well, the reason why is 'cause it takes up that,
that -- this harmonic balance in your engine. You've
got like crank and rods and all that. You balance all
those out, and you need to balance out your compression
levels and your exhaust levels and, you know, really
fine tune it. Well, anyway, in my Camaro with the 427
big block, which is a large bore but it's a short
stroke, you know, you know, that thing there on the
highway gets 32 miles per gallon, you know, using a --
Well, I've actually used 275' s, which is a highway
running gear, and I've actually had it as, as low as a
265 in it. And that, that's with all the horsepower I
f
needj
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: And because it's such a high
displacement engine and because it, it's tuned up
properly and everything, 'cause I have a few other
trick items on it, I get all that nice horsepower, all
that nice fuel economy. And then, of course, they say
well, it runs higher emissions. Well, that may be
true, but, of course, the engine is balanced --
JOHN: What kind of, what kind of fuel --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
DAVID KORESH: It actually runs, it actually
runs -- The compression ratio is right at 10 to 1.
But --
JOHN: Well, is it leaded or unleaded?
DAVID KORESH: Unleaded. You know, I use the
bronze guides and everything and the hardened seats and
the high tensile steel and stuff on the valves,
stainless valves and everything. And so --
JOHN: Well, where 'd you get that balanced?
DAVID KORESH : Huh?
JOHN: Where 'd you get it balanced?
DAVID KORESH: Ted Eaton here locally in Waco
did this one.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: He's one of the better
balancer -- It needed a little balancing. We balanced
*
the .'actually -- the flywheel assembly, the harmonic
balancer, the crank, the rods, the pistons, and
everything. And that, that's a thorough balance job.
You can -- You know, on a few grams, you know, it's --
You know, the more precise the building of the motor,
the better efficient it is. I mean, it's the
difference between the running of a lawn mower and the
running of a watch.
JOHN: Is that thing blueprinted?
DAVID KORESH: Right. The actual blueprint.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
)
though, ia, is not -- it's not -- When someone says
blueprint, they're talking about a mach model,
something that's already been proven effective. It's
documented, meaning that, you know, everything --
JOHN: So if you build this you'll get this.
DAVID KORESH: Huh?
JOHN: So if you build it this way, you'll
get this.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. When you actually have
a -- Say, you want an L6, say, you want a 427 --Or
actually an L6 is a 454, you know, because it came out
in this year model car from Chevrolet -GM. Well, you're
depending upon the engineering professionality of the,
of the factory engineers. So you, you go and you look
up all the part numbers of what they used that year,
you know, what kind of rods they used, what kind of rod
cast* nuts, what kind of crank, you know, how it was
balanced, you know, what heads. Then, you know, you
build an engine to blueprints.
If you're a professional engine builder, like
Mike Bernard out here, which is one of the top circle
track engine builders here locally, probably in the
state, he's right out here near Elk, then he might have
a winning engine, a combination that he knows, and he's
got it blueprinted. In other words, he's got a
blueprint of everything that he used to make that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
+
9
\
engine .
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: So you might want to have an
engine blueprinted to his motor.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: 'Cause, you know, when you're
in high school you've got all these guys, you know,
read too many hot rod magazines. "You all are going to
need a pretty -- it's been blueprinted and balanced and
everything." You know, most of all that is just --
really just an old regular 350 with a couple of power
pack ends on them and a big fancy intake, and nothing's
really set up for anything, you know. Loud mufflers.
But, anyway, like I said, proficiency is something to
give that I, I kind of went into the automotive
spectrum just like I did in the athletic spectrum, and
just, like I do in the Biblical spectrum.
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: I mean, you know, God on that
throne, he's proficient, he's perfect. Holy, holy,
holy. And there's just these Seven Seals and it's a
message of life and death. And as it was in the days
of Noah, Christ said it'll be the days of son of man.
When the son of man comes again to reveal the Seven
Seals, you know what they'll be doing? Christ says
they'll be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
10
marriage. They'll be totally indifferent to the call,
until the flood comes and takes them all away.
Now, we don't want that to happen, you know.
You know, there's people out there right now in America
saying what is this nut? What Seven Seals? Right?
And God is watching everybody -- saying what's he
talking about, Seven Seals? You know what they're
doing? They're going to their Bibles, right now, even
while we speak.
JOHN: Yeah, but, you know, a lot of people
are saying in the churches around this country is when
are you guys coming out of there.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You know? And the
thing of it is is that those who are mocking and those
who are scoffing and those who don't have the decency
to realize that we're human beings, too --
i JOHN: Um-hum. Well, I think --
DAVID KORESH: -- they are wrong.
JOHN: No, that's their concern, that's their
concern, that you are human beings, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. We're not bullet-
proof .
JOHN : That ' s right .
DAVID KORESH: And the thing of it is is that
if we're wrong, why don't they say hey, look, let me
talk to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11
JOHN: Well, what if you're right?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. If I'm right --
JOHN: What's going to change?
DAVID KORESH: -- then we're safe and you're
in danger, John. You need to come here right now.
JOHN: Why don't you come on out here and
save me?
DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is, come
here and see -- Okay, I tell you, okay, come on in.
JOHN: Hey, I don't want to come in there and
eat those MRE's for three months.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, see.
JOHN: I've had, I've had my share of C-
rations and MRE's in my time.
DAVID KORESH: Well, come on up hither and
what we both can agree -- and, and, and open your Bible
to Revelation 4, 5 and Chapter 6 and look at those
Seven Seals and ask yourself an honest question. Do I
know what these Seven Seals are?
JOHN: I'll do that if you'll come out.
DAVID KORESH: Well, even if I come out today
or tomorrow, I suggest that for the sake of your own
soul to look just to see what your mind tells you.
It's something we're going to all have to deal with.
JOHN: Couldn't hurt, right?
DAVID KORESH: Because, you see, if you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
* ■ * ,
believe in Matthew, if you believe in Mark --
JOHN: I've got, I've got a cousin named
Matthew. I do.
DAVID KORESH: Well, I'm sure you don't
believe in him.
JOHN: Well, yeah, I do. Yeah, he's --
DAVID KORESH: Do you believe in fish
stories?
JOHN: He's going to be a good guy when he
gets a little older.
DAVID KORESH: Do you believe in fish
stories?
JOHN: He's never told me a fish story.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, good. He's
believable then.
JOHN: Yeah.
*
1 DAVID KORESH: But --
JOHN: He's, he's a mountain kid from North
Carolina.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, I've got some friends from
North Carolina.
JOHN: Whereabouts?
DAVID KORESH: They're from Asheville.
JOHN: Yeah, that's where he's from, that
area.
DAVID KORESH: And what's the other place
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
down there?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
other one?
DAVID
JOHN:
sp. ) ?
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
the west part.
JOHN:
DAVID
* JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
Charlottesville?
13
Wayne sville?
KORESH: No, Asheville and --
Oh, there's -- What the heck's that
KORESH : Where ' s - -
Jonestown? Maggie Valley (phonetic
KORESH: It's another town down south.
Oh, south?
KORESH: Yeah.
Near the ocean?
KORESH: No, it's, it's still towards
Near Charlotte?
KORESH: Charlotte, that's it.
Okay, yeah.
KORESH: Charlottesville.
Oh, Charlottesville?
KORESH: Yeah. That ain't
JOHN: Charlotte is, is the biggest town
there. We've got an office there.
DAVID KORESH: Okay, that's Charlotte. Well,
you're from North Carolina then, right?
JOHN: NO, uh-uh.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
1
DAVID KORESH: New York?
JOHN: Upstate New York, yeah. I always, I
always specify upstate New York 'cause I don't want to
be tarred with that rush of being a city guy, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, I see.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Well, John --
JOHN: New York City's different.
DAVID KORESH: You know, I sat with Robert
Gonzalez for quite a while, you know, and I, I dealt
with him as a, as a person to a person.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And, you know, I, I really
liked the guy. I still like him. And I told Steve I
can't believe that he allowed this to happen to us, you
know, and I told him, I told him a lot of things and I
f
showed him a lot of things, you know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And, and, and, you know, he
was -- Well, he's supposed to be living with us right
now. Of course, you know, that was, you know, that was
something that never materialized, but, you know, he
was already granted that he could come in and stay with
the guys, you know, and stuff and, and have one of the
rooms here.
JOHN: Um-hum.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
15
\
DAVID KORESH: 'Cause I told him, like I told
everybody, there's a lot of statements made about me, a
lot of inquiries. And I said, you know, there's
nothing that I'm more pleased with than for someone to
give me the opportunity to sit down and to tell and to
show everything there is to know about me. I have
nothing to hide. And what happened is is that I began
to set down with Robert and I began to show him, and he
was convicted ' cause he saw it right there in front of
him. And, and you can tell when a person's convicted.
And, of course, all along I knew he was an
agent, too. So, you know, but that's beside the point.
I have nothing to fear of agents and I have nothing to
fear of anybody --
JOHN: Good.
DAVID KORESH: -- in the system --
*
•* JOHN: Come on out.
DAVID KORESH: -- that's trying to, that's
trying to, to uphold what they classify as law.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: What I, I have always had to
be cautious of is the fact that injustice and tyranny
have been since the beginning of time, and you know
that from 2,000 years ago.
JOHN : Um-hum . That ' s
DAVID KORESH: That no matter how truthful a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
\
person may be you can get crucified.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, you won't deny that
point, will you?
JOHN: No. Some people can, you know, if
they don't get a good attorney.
DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is
Christ didn't have to worry about an attorney, did he?
JOHN: He didn't, he didn't make out too well
that first night, but then he got them when he came
back, right?
DAVID KORESH: But the thing of it was is
that his final judge was the Father. And what I'm
trying to say is I'm trying to carry you a little
further to say that on the cross it is stated clearly
for all men to hear throughout all ages, Father, into
thy hand I commit my spirit. And lo and behold, in the
right hand of God there is the rest of the story, Seven
Seals .
JOHN: Oh, I thought you were going to say
Paul Harvey.
DAVID KORESH: And if those who hear me and
who judge me according to their own perceptions, not
knowing both sides of the story as of yet, and you
admit that, if they --
JOHN: Well, nobody's going to hear both
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17
sides of the story until you come out of there, man.
DAVID KORESH: Well, that, that is true.
JOHN: Right now, you know, I think that the
public perceives you as being an ostrich with your head
in the sand.
DAVID KORESH: Well, you see, in the Psalms
119, it says that great peace have they which love they
law, and nothing shall offend them.
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, I have to admit that I
was offended when I was accused of having drugs here,
because that's just something that's, that's been
repulsive since day one. And, and the thing of it is
is they know that we don't have no drug labs here, and
that was just something they had to use to cover their
own rear ends because they illegally obtained those
*
helicopters. I mean, they actually had agents on those
helicopters. They were trying to land on top of the
roof, what that was all about.
JOHN: Is that place that well built?
DAVID KORESH: Well, sure it is. I mean, you
know, the thing of it is they, they had -- you know,
they would, they would jump off on the roof if the
helicopter had gotten close enough. But --
JOHN: Oh, oh, they were going to jump on the
roof instead of land on it?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
18
DAVID KORESH: Well, no, the helicopter
wouldn't have been able to -- Well, I don't know. No,
the helicopter wouldn't have been able to land on the
roof. The roof is slanted. But, you know, they've got
those little ladder things, little things they throw
out. But there are so many services all -- The roof is
such a large place that, you know, somebody might try
to land on the top of the roof. But, you know, and I'm
sure everyone can honestly say that
JOHN : You know one thing -- You know, you're
talking about people's perception of you is wrong, you
know, that some of the criticism you get --
DAVID KORESH: Well, not everybody. There's
a lot of people --
JOHN: Well, not everybody. Obviously, the
people in there. You know, what if, what if I joined
your i cult, you know, what would happen to me?
DAVID KORESH: Well, then you would -- when
you came out, you'd have to sit in jail with us,
wouldn't you?
JOHN: If I -- No (laughing) .
DAVID KORESH: You want to ask, you want to
ask
JOHN : Philosophically --
DAVID KORESH: Huh?
JOHN: Well, it depends. I think if I went
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
t
in there now I probably wouldn't. I don't know, you
know. Although I guess they're discouraging people
going in there, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Well, others have --
JOHN; Let's say, let's say, you know, if
this never happened, okay? Let's go back to ideology,
okay, to a, to a time before this event occurred which
caused this whole thing.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, okay. Okay. For
instance, me and you are out fishing one day, right?
And you see me read the Bible and you go what are you
reading?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: I go oh, the Seven Seals here.
And you go what's that? I go well, do you believe in
the Lord, Jesus Christ? You go oh, yeah, I go to
churfch. I go well, there's something here more about
Christ that is to reveal the latter days. What's that?
So I'll go here, and I'll show you Revelation 4 and 5,
that God sits on a throne. Must be hereafter. I mean
something has to be. John said so. Otherwise, John's
lying. And if John's a liar, you might as well throw
out the gospel of John II, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: I mean, we don't want to be
following no baloney heads here, you know.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
20
JOHN: Right. Or salami heads, for that
matter.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You know? So, so
what happens is you read it. Well, God sits on a
throne here, he's the Lord of Lord and creator of all
things and that he's got this book here that no one in
heaven has wanted to open and look thereon. And all
the angels are subject and everyone that's holy in
heaven is subject to this, and, and the Father hands
the book to the lamb and the lamb reveals these Seven
Seals. And do you know what the Seven Seals are, John?
Well, no, Dave, I, I, I don't. I say well,
the first one here is a man on a white horse. He's got
a crown and a bow. It's a symbol of something, isn't
it? Well, right after the Seventh Seal is opened,
there's these seven trumpets. Do you know what the
*
firsj trumpet is? No. Well, how about the seventh
trumpet here? No. Well, okay. Well, here in Chapter
10 here it says that this mighty angel comes to earth,
he brings this book and he opens it up and the
seven thunders are uttered. Well, remember here in
Chapter 4 and 5, John, the seven thunders were the
Seven Seals, the little book that was given to the
lamb?
Well, it's going to be revealed on earth.
And the angel swears by the God who made all things
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
that when there's time no longer this mystery will be
finished, as God declared to his servants, the
prophets. I guess God must have told the prophets
something about this book that we might have
overlooked. Well, I wonder if Isaiah or Micah or
Jeremiah or Ezekiel, Amos or Hosea, Obadiah or
Zephaniah or Moses has something to eay about it. But
anyway, so what happens is we see here in Chapter 11
that there '8 this mystery of God.
In Chapter 12, there's this woman in heaven
who has a manchild who's to rule all nations and the
child is called up to God to his throne. That's the
lamb. And the devil was cast out.
JOHN: Say you sold me on that and I say I
want to learn more, okay?
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So then here you are,
youire saying well, hey, man, this is, this is really
neat. I didn't realize this. My church never taught
me this. I said well, there's probably a reason for
it. Most people when they read the Book of Revelation
can't understand it. That's why they call it
apocryphal. They say, you know, apocalyptic, it's
something which is the future and always future.
And -- But I say eventually the future becomes probably
now. I mean, for, you know, for, for 3500 years the
prophets spoke and finally Christ came.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
22
)
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: But, of course --
JOHN: Then what happens?
DAVID KORESH: Well, so then what happens is
is that I say well, look here in Chapter 22. Jesus
says right here I Jesus sent mine angel to testify to
do these things in the churches.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: So Jesus sent his angel to
John and John wrote down what the, what the angel
showed him to write. So I says now, look here, Jesus
says behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me to
give to every man, according as their work shall be. I
go well, you know, John, your work in life is to make a
living. You're under America, this great nation,
you've been given liberties above any other nation.
t
You £now, there's just something missing in our gospel
that was recently found in the gospel of Matthew, Mark,
Luke, and John. But, of course, we can only do what we
can do.
John, how would you like to learn the Seven
Seals? Oh, well, yeah. But, John, you've got to
realize that only those who are true Christians can
learn the Seven Seals. What do you mean, Dave? First
of all, the whole New Testament tells us that by faith
we are saved. We've got to believe that God sits on a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
throne. There's got to be something more. We've got
to believe that the day will come when a jury will be
called together and God will ask one question in
heaven, and it's not going to be how many sins you
committed or how many sins your brothers committed.
There's only one question God's going to ask,
and that is who's worthy to open this mystery, a book,
a revelation of Christ that God gives to him? In the
book of John the Apostle, John states over and over
that Jesus said to Sanhedrin of Pharisees, my doctrine
is not my own, but my Father who sent me. He that
believeth on me as the scriptures say it, out of him
shall flow waters of living water. All through the
Book of John, Christ keeps referring that he can do of
himself nothing but what the Father allows him to do.
So on the cross, you've got to acknowledge
4
that! Jesus died because of our ignorance, because of
our ignorance. Father, forgive them for they know not
what they do. He knew the prophecies, he knew when his
work was
JOHN : So, Dave, say okay, I want, I want to
join the program.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So then I go well,
John, let me show you something here. See here in the
Book of Revelation Christ says he has the key of David,
only he can open it and none can shut. You know David
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
# *
24
was a king and he was a prophet, and David of Old was
given visions about his son. God promised David that
out of his seed God would sit upon his throne in
heaven. So I take you to Psalms 40. I go look at this
psalm.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, what do I do physically
to get in the program?
DAVID KORESH: Well, you -- Nothing yet.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
DAVID KORESH: Herein your soul shall live,
Isaiah says. All the prophets talk about the
importance of listening. Here, let us reason together,
God says. I'll make an everlasting covenant with
you -- mercies of David. Okay, so you're sitting there
listening. Why? Because you have an interest in
Christ . You have an interest in someone who loves you
so mpch that they would come and, by the power of God,
keep the law, fulfill the law, and die and forgive you.
Now, this is intriguing.
Christ says no greater love of man known but
that his brother lay down his life for him. This
intrigues man, such selflessness. Selflessness. Okay.
Very easy to believe that it is acted upon. We're all
selfish, but not Christ. So here Christ promises to
give as a reward a revelation of himself that only he
can reveal. So I take you to Psalms 40 and I go now,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
25
look at here, here's a psalm --
JOHN: When do I get my toothbrush and
jammies and come over, though? I mean, how does that
work? I'm trying to get a feel for, you know, what you
live like and --
DAVID KORESH: Look, the thing of it is is
that faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of
God.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And all we're doing while
we're fishing there this one afternoon is we're just
simply talking about the word of God. Now, you may say
well, now, Dave, this is something to think about.
Wait a minute. I've had enough. I'd like to go home
and read Revelation 4 and 5 for myself. And I'll say
well, that's fine, that's good. Would you like my
t
telephone number? And you say well, sure, that won't
hurt. And I go well, if you have any questions, just
give me a call. And so we just finish fishing. I
won't mention nothing more about it.
So you go home where you have no outward
influences and you read Revelation 4 and 5 for
yourself. Hmmmm, you know that Dave was right. Huh.
This must be hereafter. This is something that has to
happen before the end of the world. That's right.
It's a revelation of Christ. God gave us a book with
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
seven -- And it's, it's sealed and it won't be revealed
till there's time no longer. I'm going to call that
Dave guy up. Ring, ring. Dave? Hello, John. Oh,
you're still interested in those seals, huh?
Yeah, Dave. I want to know if I can bring my
toothbrush over. No, you can't bring your toothbrush
over yet. You don't know if we, if we know anything
about it . You need to go ask your preacher and your
teachers to show you the seals and see what they say
about it. Give yourself a fair opportunity to really
exercise your own mind, because, you know, John, to be
honest with you, you've got a mind. God gave you a
mind and God gave you a wisdom. And if you're going to
be saved, you're going to do it.
No one is going to save you. No, not even
God. God has done his work. God has a book, God has a
*
trutji, and you've seen it. And if you are going to be
saved, you're going to be saved because you want to see
it. Now, I will show you what I have to show you, but
you will be the one that will decide whether you want
to see it or not. Well, Dave, I want to see if you
know these seals. Okay, you've got to be honest with
me then. Is God sitting on the throne? That's what
the Bible says.
Okay. Then you don't really know for sure,
you just know what the scriptures say. Well, right.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
27
m. • ,
Okay. Did he give the book to the lamb? That's what
the Bible says. Okay. I am honest with you. That's
honest . That ' s what I require , you ' ve got to be
honest. You don't really know if what John says is
true or not, you just know what it says, and that --
JOHN: The Book of John?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And the Revelation.
You see? John wrote the Revelation, too, as well as
the Gospel of John.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: So, in other words, you know,
I'm, I'm taking you straight down to the brass tacks.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: Now, we're just simply
admitting that that's what John said. John says he saw
God sitting on the throne and John says he saw God give
*
the Jpook to the lamb. John says he saw the lamb open
the Seven Seals, but he never told us what the meaning
was. And John says he saw when there's time no longer
this mystery will be finished, and John said Jesus said
he was going to come and bring this reward. That's
what John said.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: All right. Now, I'm saying
what you're saying. You're saying that that's what
John said and I agree with you, okay, I agree with you.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
28
John. And, so far, I can see that you're an honest
person. All right. Now, John, if you'll look in
Psalms 40, you'll find that somebody says I waited
patiently on the Lord, he inclined to me and heard my
cry. He brought me up out of a horrible pit and out of
miry clay and set my feet upon rock and established my
going. He put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto
our God. Many shall see it and fear it and shall trust
in the Lord. Offering this sacrifice God did not
desire. Burnt offering and sin offering, God does not
require it. Then said I lo, I come, in the volume of
the book it is written of me.
And I'll say now, John, in that psalm who do
you know that was delivered out of a horrible pit, out
of the miry clay? Do you know of anybody that was
crucified and put into a tomb? Do you know of anybody
that/ was delivered and taken up to heaven and placed
upon a rock? Is not God a rock in the Book of
Revelation? Did not God give to the lamb a book and
when Christ comes it'll be in the volume of that book
it's written of him?
You go well, Psalms 40, yeah, and it is
written of him. Exactly. It's a revelation that God
gave to him so it could be strictly by the book. Is
not Psalms 40 a revelation of Jesus Christ? It's got
to be. He's the only one that was taken to heaven, and
29
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
comes in the volume of the book it's written of him.
How'd you know that, Dave? Well, in Psalms 2 -- Now,
see. I'll start showing you --
JOHN: 'Cause you can read, right?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. In other words, I'll
start showing you that there's 150 psalms and every
psalm is connected 100 percent to that vision of
Revelation 4 and 5. You see? So like in Psalms 11,
when it says the wicked bend their bow that they may
shoot at the upright in secret, it says if the
foundation be destroyed what can the righteous do? It
says God's throne is in heaven, God's throne is set for
judgment, and it begins to tell you every reason why
God sits on that throne, how he's going to judge the
world by his truth.
In Psalms 1 when it says that you're blessed,
if you love the law of God you'll be like a tree
planted by the waters. Otherwise, you won't stand in
his judgment. His judgment is the revelation of
Christ. In Psalms 2, it says the heat of the rage when
Christ comes to reveal the seals, and he that sits in
the heaven shall laugh at them and the Lord will have
them in confusion. And then will he speak to them in
his wrath and vex them in his sore displeasure. They
end up angering God, and that's what opens the Sixth
Seal. I mean, Psalms 4, look at Psalms 4.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
30
Very clearly, who is that person? Oh, yea
sons of men, how long will you turn my glory into
shame? How long will you love vanity and seek after
leasing? But he tries to tell them, but know that the
Lord is set apart him that is godly for himself; the
Lord will hear when I call unto him. Now, who has God
set apart from all of heaven that's godly for himself?
Christ. Now, when you read Psalms 89, oh, that's a
beautiful psalm. This is one that makes people --
makes their mouth drop open. You know why?
Because it tells you clearly that God takes
Christ, the seed of David, to heaven, exalts him,
honors him all before heaven. And you know what it
says it's going to do to Christ? After Christ is taken
to heaven and exalted, it says that God will cast his
crown down to the ground and that God will cause this
*
throjm to be cast down to the ground.
JOHN: Let's say if I answer that, when do I
join the club?
DAVID KORESH: Well, see, what happens is as
you begin to learn these truths you begin to understand
why it says that thou God has made all of his enemies
to rejoice. God's brought his strongholds to ruin.
All that passed by the way is spoilen, he's a reproach
to his neighbors that's made all his enemies to
rejoice. Now, people call this a compound. I thought
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1
* *
31
a compound was a place with a fence, isn't it?
JOHN: I, I - - You know, that's up to
interpretation .
DAVID KORESH: Well, no --
JOHN: I wondered about that, too, you know.
What can we call it, a dude ranch?
DAVID KORESH: Call it, call it a big house.
JOHN : I don ' t know . When can I come and
live at the big house under this scenario that we're
working?
DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is, you
know --
JOHN: Let's say I show a lot of curiosity
and get my interest peaked. I buy into the program.
You know, what's the mechanism?
DAVID KORESH: Well, what'll happen is is
*
that* first of all, naturally, you're not going to do
that as a person, which is natural. You know, you're
going to say, you're going to 6ay wow, man, this man,
Dave, this is a lot of information. Where' d you learn
all this? And I'm going to say don't worry about that,
just take it home, write the text down and review it
and bring your questions to me.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: And then you're going to study
Psalms 89 a little more thoroughly and you're going to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
32
realize hey, this prophecy shows that after Christ is
taken to heaven and his throne is established as a
memorial in heaven that the Father's going to cast him
back down to the ground. And, of course, when he comes
in the volume of the Book you'll find out that while
he's trying to reveal the seven seals no one's going to
accept him but a few people.
JOHN: Um -hum.
DAVID KORESH: So then you're going to --
JOHN: Let's say I'm one of those people,
okay?
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, then what'll
happen is is that if you say Dave, I want to know more
really what the first seal is. I go okay, now, in
Psalms 45 there is the first seal in the key of David.
I'll gb now, look, you wonder about earthquakes and
*
tornadoes, you wonder about all the disasters of this
world. And I'll say now, remember, one time God
brought Israel out of Egypt but their hearts were not
with God and they chose their own ways . They wanted to
live like the heathens. I'll go now, look, when you
come up hither, God's a rock. That's what he appears
to be, hard, immovable, unchangeable.
But he's got a revelation of Jesus Christ
which he wants his son to reveal, right? So in Psalms
45, you'll find that what is said, my heart is inditing
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
* ,
a good matter. I speak of the things which I have
made, touching the king. My tongue is the pen of a
ready writer. I'll tell you, I'll say now, John,
you're looking at a revelation of God. God wants to
talk about his son. God wants to talk about the things
he has made. He's the creator, touching his king.
And he says my tongue is the pen of a ready
writer. Now, what Psalms 45 reveals is that whatever
God wants to say about his king, he put it in a book.
God claims to be the author of the Bible. God claims
that he spake in times past by his servants the
prophets and required that his word be written down,
just like in Psalms 45, as the mystery of God, this
revelation of Christ, is to be revealed by his servants
the prophets. So you'll be saying wow, that's right.
And he says about the king, he says thou art fairer to
r
the ^children of men. So I'll ask you, is Christ fairer
to children of men? Yes.
Grace is poured into thy lips, therefore God
has blessed thee forever. So I'll ask you, when Christ
receives the book, the Seven Seals, when he comes will
he teach the Seven Seals? Well, yes. And all those
who learn the Seven Seals will receive grace. Well,
then it says gird thy sword upon my thigh, oh, most
mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. I'll ask you a
question. Did Christ receive glory and majesty by
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
t
34
heaven? Did all of heaven bow before him? Yes.
And in that majesty ride prosperously because
of truth. Now, I'll say now, John, when the Father
gave the lamb the book, doesn't it say in the first
seal he's going to ride a white horse, conquering and
to conquer? Will he not ride prosperously? Is it not
the truth of the book, the first seal? Is that truth
not found in Psalms 45? Then you'll realize very
clearly, wow. Psalms 45 is the very words that the
first seal contains.
The first seal in Revelation is a preview to
the prophecy of Psalms 45. But the part of salvation
is this. It says upon thy right hand must stand the
queen in gold of O'phir. Harken, oh, daughter and
consider and incline thine ear; forget thou people and
thy father's house; so shall the king greatly desire
thy beauty for he is thy lord and worship thou him.
Now, in Revelation 19, you'll find out that after the
fall of Babylon the saints in heaven, they're praising
God and they say for the marriage of the lamb has come
and his wife has made herself ready.
Now, it says God said right, these words are
faithful and true. Blessed is he which is called to
the marriage supper of the lamb. Now, Psalms 45 is the
prophecy about the lamb getting married. That's the
first seal. It's a party. It's a party that joins the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
35
minds of men to the mind of God. It reveals the
secrets of the intent of God. And right there in
Revelation 19 John says and I behold, lo, a white
horse. And he that sit upon him was called faithful
and true. And in righteousness, he does judge and make
war. And it says here the name that no one knows but
himself, his name's the word of God.
And, of course, naturally, what, is David
Koresh any different than Vernon Howell or Paul Smith
or John Denver, right? It's just another name.
JOHN: John Denver was a very successful
musician.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. But when you see
Psalms 45, that it is the same prophecy as what
Revelation 6, 1 and 2 speaks of in the symbol of the
first seal, then you'll understand why in Revelation 19
thatiit's an invitation for you to learn about a
marriage of the lamb. And those who learn are blessed
because they're beginning to learn the mystery of God
that God has chosen to conceal from the sons of men
until the latter days. Mercy and truth shall go before
his face. Righteousness and judgment are the
habitation of his throne. And then you'll learn all
150 psalms, and at that time you'll say man, this is
unbelievable. What's the second seal, Dave? Then I'll
show you Zechariah.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
36
JOHN: Does this not have anything to do with
the Ten Commandments?
DAVID KORESH: You see, the Ten Commandments
are God's standard of righteousness.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: But in the Book of Romans,
Paul says that now the righteousness of God is
revealed, being witnessed without the law.
JOHN: So forget the Ten Commandments?
DAVID KORESH: No. On the contrary. You are
to see the Ten Commandments and realize how righteous
they are.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: But who only keeps the Ten
Commandments? Only God.
JOHN: They aren't that applicable then to
man?'i
DAVID KORESH: Wait a minute, though. But
they are. Paul says the law was revealed so that sin
might be seen for what it is. It's terrible. That
every mouth might be shut and that all the world might
become guilty before God.
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: Fine. So that you can see
Christ is the law, he is the Ten Commandments. But he
doesn't condemn anybody. Just being around Christ
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
IB
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
)
makes us aware of how short we are in regards to him.
But the love of Christ is the commandment that gives
the fulfillment by saying Father, forgive them for they
know not what they do. And by his spirit being put to
the right hand of God, those who look to Christ for
righteousness are already convicted of the law. But in
Christ, we find love and forgiveness and forbearance,
not only given to -- of God, but we also share it with
one another.
So that by the prophecy, Peter says through
Christ we receive great and precious promises, which
are the prophecies, that by these promises you may be a
partaker of his divine nature. Keeping the law is
something that God is going to fulfill in every one of
us who follow the truth, continuing in the doctrine of
Christ. It's a free gift. No man, by the words of the
lawrf can be justified by the law, because in trying to
keep the law we break it. What can I say? I'm sorry.
And you can say to me I'm sorry. Why? Because Christ
has forgiven us all through his love that he had for
us.
Therefore, there's only two commandments,
love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. So if any
man does sin against you, not willfully 'cause those
who follow Christ don't want to sin willfully, it's a
spiritual thing. You don't want to willfully lie to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
38
• •' • >
your wife, do you? Or commit adultery or kill or
murder or steal or take God's name in vain. There's a
big difference in God trying to show you that according
to your human nature, born under the flesh, you are
naturally by nature going to be a sinner. And God says
I don't condemn you for that, but I have to clarify it
so you realize the importance of learning the truth.
Without the truth, you'll never receive the
promises of God in his power to redeem you for his own
namesake. So, you'll learn, for instance, like Psalms
31, where Christ got that, into thy head I commit my
spirit. You'll learn all 150 psalms. You'll say man,
this is, this is something -- I didn't know the psalms
were prophecies about Christ and the way he thinks and
his work and his mission and the opposition he's going
to receive. I didn't know Psalms 18, how that God's
going to have to deliver him because the world's not
i
going to want to hear the truth. I didn't realize the
merchants and the great men and that people can't
endure this truth because they make money off of a
false gospel which is not found in God.
Then you'll learn the second seal, why
Zechariah says that there's a rock with seven eyes and
God's the one who engraves the writing thereof. Well,
you know God's the rock and he wrote Seven Seals.
You'll know why Zechariah says that God will remove the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
i
iniquity of that land in one day, the importance of the
seals. And there's a candlestick with seven lamps
thereon. You'll learn the meaning of why the lamb had
seven eyes, which are the eyes of the Lord.
Seven Seals, seven eyes, seven lights, seven
truths, all complete for the seventh day Sabbath, the
memorial of God's word. Then you'll learn the third
seal. You'll learn the Book of Hosea, what his tale
is, about the Lord being a merchant man. You'll learn
all the entailment of Isaiah 28, the Book of Ezekiel,
why the fourth seal whose name is death, and hell
follows. It's nothing about what it appears. This
is
JOHN : We were talking about country music.
Do you like Willie Nelson?
DAVID KORESH: Well, "Blue Eyes Crying in the
f
Rairt, " I mean, you know --
JOHN: Have you heard "Seven Spanish Angels"?
DAVID KORESH: Well, I don't remember that
one.
JOHN: Seven reminds me of -- You'd probably
like that one.
DAVID KORESH: But, see, then all of a sudden
you'll, you'll say to me Dave, I've learned so much. I
want to know all this. And I'll go well, now you know
why people come from all over the world and why I've
40
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
+ ■ •
got such a big house and if you really want to know the
mystery, if you really want the seal of the 144,000,
which is the seal, the living God, there's only one
living God, he has only one book, there's only one
revelation of Christ, there's only one Seven Seals.
That's what separates the 144,000 from everybody else
in the world, the love of the truth.
JOHN: So then I can come and live there?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. Let's say I do. How do I live
there? In other words, do I get assigned a room or
what?
DAVID KORESH: Well, if, if you're single or
if you're married --It depends on whether you're
married or single.
JOHN: Married.
*
i DAVID KORESH: Okay, you're married. Well,
then you'll have to be having the rooms where the guys
and the girls live together. You'll get a room to
yourself .
JOHN: Oh, I do get a room to myself?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. Just my wife and I?
DAVID KORESH: Well, you got kids?
JOHN: Yeah, but they're -- they'd be in
school, you know, they're off in college.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
41
DAVID KORESH: Oh. Well, okay, then you'd be
just your wife and yourself. Then I have to worry
about all the hell I'm going to get from them. Mom,
Dad, what are you doing? A cult? This is weird.
What's wrong with you?
JOHN: No, the heck with them, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Well, see, then all of a
sudden they call the AT -- I mean they call the FBI up
and give all these wild stories.
JOHN: Okay. How much, how much choice of
decor do I have, though? If my wife wants pink in her
room and I want blue, how do you settle that? You
know, like you're the manager, right?
DAVID KORESH: Well, no. What happens is
when you're allotted that room, you'll, you'll have
your access to your funds and your accounts and
everything and, and, you know, like I say, it's just
like any other decent thing. If you want to learn the
Seven Seals --
(End of Tape 218)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1
)
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
i
TAPE #219
4/13/93
3:26 a.m. - 4:13 a.m.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
(Tape 219 )
2
DAVID KORESH: -- walls, and things like
that, and you're going to be able to fix up the room to
your capacity of what you want.
JOHN: Do -- does she and I get a bath?
DAVID KORESH: Well, you're going to have to
find out that that's all in the process of time,
because originally you would have, if we was out in
California -- but we got raided one Sabbath day and so
we had to move to a different place 'cause we found out
it was against the law to have a church service in your
home in California.
JOHN: Really? In California?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Exactly.
JOHN: Shoot, I thought in California you
could do anything you want.
i DAVID KORESH: Na-uh. So, finally, what
happened was is the group that had come from Hawaii
originally, they said we've been through this process
since day one. We all came together and people came
from overseas and stuff and we built this place up from
scratch and we built it up for the last two years and
we've, we tried to add to it and add to it and it's not
totally finished, and we've had to work against rain
and everything and we've done it and we've not -- to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
« +
the capacity we wanted to, but we made it comfortable
and we had to make a lot of modifications. And someone
from the outside, not knowing why we're doing this, is
going to say -- my, this room here sure is small. And
I say well, why don't you get your money and go out
here and build you a room out in the back the way you
want it?
JOHN: Well, let me, let me ask you this.
DAVID KORESH: So, you see, you'll find out
once you get more answers, that the situation has been
a necessity, not according to our carnal desires or our
wills, but the necessity of having a place for people
to come. Okay, for instance, like Scott and them --
built a room for themselves. And all of a sudden a
bunch of people came, people from overseas. Well, what
are we going to do, put them in the hallway?
j JOHN: This is -- let me ask you a managerial
problem. Let's say I came initially, okay? And then,
you know, I asked my wife to come later on. I would
live, you know -- where would I live if I came
initially?
DAVID KORESH: Oh, like Robert Gonzalez?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Robert liked Scott a lot, so.
he'd probably room with Scott.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
•' • • >
JOHN: Okay, so room with somebody. Then
when she comes, what, what would happen?
DAVID KORESH: Well, then by that time, you
would be fully informed and stuff and arrangements
would probably be made to where you have to have your
room built to your degree. And then when you start
learning more and more and more seals, then all of a
sudden you're going to learn more and more and more
what the full plan is. And there might be
modifications .
JOHN: But would --
DAVID KORESH: Well, it's just like people
say I get all the wives. David gets all the
cigarettes, David gets all the booze, David is screwing
all the women.
JOHN: Do you smoke, David?
J DAVID KORESH: Yes, I smoke.
JOHN: What brand?
DAVID KORESH: Marlboro Lights.
JOHN: Yesl Common ground, okay. (Laughs)
I didn't mean to be over-enthused there. Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: Well, why do I smoke, though?
I never smoked for years.
JOHN: I don't know.
DAVID KORESH: I smoke for a reason that you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
would not probably think would be a reason.
JOHN: Hit me. Maybe I've got another
excuse .
DAVID KORESH: Well, again that goes into
some doctrine in regards to something that -- like I
say, it's all in the seals. And it's very clear and
very obvious. Hosea was committed to marrying two
prostitutes in his day because God wanted to emphasize
that God, being a God of Israel and Judea, they were
prostitutes in the light of the world. They were
giving their intention and their spirits to the world
and they were not adhering to God. But yet, they were
wanting God to give them all the blessings. So Judea
and Israel had, had split it up as a nation.
JOHN: Well, let me just ask you a question
flat out. I've got a very young, very attractive wife.
If she came in there, would you try to nail her?
DAVID KORESH: Absolutely not.
JOHN: Okay. I had to clear the air on that
one , you know .
DAVID KORESH: Well, see --
JOHN: I want to walk in there with my eyes
open , you know .
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Now, the thing of it
is -- okay, here's the question, would you try to nail
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
I •
her? Absolutely not. The Bible teaches -- in the
world thou shall not commit adultery. Now, remember,
there is seven seals. Now, remember, in Revelation 14
that group of people are revealed to the degree of what
Revelation states it to be, but the details are found
in the writings of the prophets. When it says these
are they which were not defiled with women, for they
are virgins -- right? What happens is the question is
naturally going to arise -- why are they virgins? What
- - they never, they never was with a woman before?
That's not what the prophets teach. Now, the church
says well, they're spiritual virgins, and that's
perfectly appliable, but the real truth is is that if a
person can't show you the first seal, then he can't
show you the second and he can't show the third or the
fourth or the fifth or the sixth or the seventh. Every
sealj entails clearly what God is going to do and why
he's going to do it. You see?
JOHN: Um- hum.
DAVID KORESH: So you don't, you don't
destroy somebody or push a theory down somebody. Let
me tell you about how there's this cult awareness
group, okay?
JOHN: Is, is cult a bad, a bad term to you,
to call your group a cult? Is that --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
\
DAVID KORESH: Not to me.
JOHN: Okay. So it's all right?
DAVID KORESH: But -- no, well, let me
explain. But it's one of those many terms that are
used to make merchandise of me. You see, I’m not to be
advertised pro or con. No one can come to me and say
oh, wow, man, I know this guy David Koresh, man he's
awesome, he's great, he's -- my students never do that.
In Matthew 24, it's very clearly stated, very clearly
-- After those days, if any shall say unto you behold,
Christ is in the desert, go not forth. Or Christ is in
a secret chamber, you know, he's hiding, right? He's
hid. Believe it not. You see, no man can tell you who
Christ is. Nobody. And a true disciple of Christ
would never go against Christ's word. Christ states
on, "Fdr as the lightning shines out of the east even
to fjhe west that's pretty, that's pretty obvious,
isn't it?
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: "So, also, shall the coming of
the son of man be." It's so obvious nobody can
counterfeit it. "For wheresoever the carcass is, there
will be the eagles gathered together."
JOHN: So, so if I, if I join up, I can keep
my wife with me?
1
2
3
•4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
• •
8
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You have to walk in
the light as the light is enfolded to you.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: That's why everybody that
first comes to learn the seals, I always send them
away. You see, what I know is going to benefit you
nothing .
JOHN: That's a, that's a sales kind of
thing, you know.
DAVID KORESH: I wrote the --
JOHN: Show them something then take it back
-- you don't really want this, you know.
DAVID KORESH: No, no, no.
JOHN: That's good salesmanship.
DAVID KORESH: No, what it is --
JOHN: You'd make a heck of a car salesman,
by tjie way.
DAVID KORESH: What it is, is it is the
requirement of God for people not to be joined by
flatteries.
JOHN: You know to be an effective preacher
or anything, you have to be a salesman. There's,
there's nothing wrong with being a salesman, you know?
It's not a derogatory term. The world revolves around
salesmen.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
• • >
DAVID KORESH: Hey, what do I need to do to
to sell you --
JOHN: Was Jesus a salesman? Was Jesus a
salesman?
DAVID KORESH: What do I need to sell you
toilet paper?
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: What do I need to sell you
toilet paper?
JOHN: If I need it.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Okay.
JOHN: Unless you've got something better
than toilet paper, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Well, God sits on a throne.
You need that and you need the knowledge of those
seals.
JOHN: Well, I'm curious, you know, as a, as
i
a potential member. Did other people give up their
wives?
DAVID KORESH: Well, did they?
JOHN: That was my question.
DAVID KORESH: Well, why would you ask me
that?
JOHN: 'Cause I'm curious about it, you know.
It's just like --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
10
• ‘ #>
DAVID KORESH: And you're curious about it
because
JOHN : It's like any -- because I've got you
on the phone. I've got David Koresh to talk to and I
want, you know, I'm curious. You know, I want to hear
it from you.
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: You talked about people spreading
rumors
DAVID KORESH: Let's look behind the --
let's look behind the curtain, John.
JOHN: Yes, all right.
DAVID KORESH: Behind the curtain
JOHN : You know, let me, let me say this.
DAVID KORESH: -- there is a bunch of
negotiators who are reading newspapers --
JOHN: I don't see that many.
DAVID KORESH: -- who say to the whole public
on the outside -- he's got all the women.
JOHN: Oh, the heck with that.
DAVID KORESH: He's got all the --
JOHN: You know, I'm just curious about,
about the, the living conditions, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: And let's put it this way. Let's say,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11
okay, in this scenario I'm applying as a member, okay?
I talked about bringing the wife and so forth. When
you buy a car or whatever, don't you inquire as to, you
know, what's the gas mileage?
DAVID KORESH: You drive it.
JOHN: Or, you know, if you go to a motel or
something, don’t you look at the room or do you just
take it on face value and -- you know, anything you do,
a man would be silly to go into something blind, right?
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: And you're telling me that you open
people's eyes before you allow them to --
DAVID KORESH: Do you drink Coca Cola?
JOHN: Do I drink Coca Cola?
DAVID KORESH : Yeah .
JOHN: On occasion.
I DAVID KORESH: This is the way I teach a lot
of skeptical people. I say now, look, I'm going to
reveal something to you. I'm going to reveal to you a
can of Coca Cola.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: I go now, what does this say?
And I hold up the can of Coca Cola in front of them.
They go well, what's your point? What does it say? It
says Coca Cola. And I'll read the bottling plant and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
all that on it.
JOHN: Urn-hum.
DAVID KORESH: I go now, this looks like a
Coca Cola in all obvious realities, but there's only
one acid test. I pop the top, I hand it to them. I go
you experience it. And, of course, they take a sip and
I go now, what is that?
JOHN: Fructose, corn syrup.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly.
JOHN: Caramel color, phosphoric acid, real
flavors and caffeine.
DAVID KORESH: So they go well, this is a
Coca Cola. I go exactly. The experience is based upon
the perceptions of previous experience.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: That is the only way --
i JOHN: It's the real thing.
DAVID KORESH: -- truth of God is imparted.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, you're asking me
questions based upon your perceptions brought to
attention by accusations.
JOHN: In other words, you have to see things
to be
DAVID KORESH: So, in other words, to make
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
13
sure that you are receiving your doctrine from God,
from within --
JOHN: In other words, people have to be
shown, right?
DAVID KORESH: In other words, people have to
be shown beyond shadows of the doubt . Now - -
JOHN: Well, let me ask you something, aside
from this. Have you ever seen a baby pigeon?
DAVID KORESH: Only -- as a matter of fact, I
don ' t think I have .
JOHN: I never have. That freaks me out. It
just freaks me out. Every city I've ever been in has
pigeons. I've never seen a baby pigeon. Ever. I've
even been around people that raise, you know, carrier
pigeons that fly around, you know, the competition.
I've never seen a baby pigeon. That freaks me out.
i DAVID KORESH: I've never seen one in a book.
JOHN: No, I haven't either. Well, go ahead.
Just wondered.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So now, when you read
the writings of Paul, Paul is talking about marriage
and Paul says that those who do marry sin not, for man
cannot condemn himself. It's better to marry than to
burn. Paul condemns self -abuse, Paul condemns
fornication, and Paul condemns adultery. Very clearly.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
\
Before we can learn about grace and mercy and truth,
we've got to first learn the law. Paul says the law is
our schoolmaster.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: You see, my father --my
stepdad taught me the law -- don't do what I do, do
what I say. And the force of that law was the penalty.
And the joy of that law was the freedom obtained by
obedience. He told me not to drink milk out of the
jug, okay?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Or water. But, of course, me
and my brother would, you know, our hallway was right
down -- it looked straight down into the kitchen and
the icebox was right down there in the kitchen, at the
end of the long hallway there.
T
j JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And we'd see him at 11:00 at
night in his robe, standing at the icebox door with the
milk jug straight up and down, guzzling milk right out
of the jug.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: So after a while I began to
ask him later on -- Daddy, how come you would always
come by and drink milk out of the jug but you wouldn't
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
)
15
let us? And he'd look at us and he'd say -- because I
am Daddy-0 and what I do is what I do. When you grow
up and when you have kids and when you pay the bills,
you will do what you want to do, and your kids will do
what you tell them to do, which I don't abide by those
rules, but I can see the wisdom in it.
Okay. Now, when I was a kid I had a playpen
to keep me restrained. I could crawl, I could walk a
little, but there were certain things that I had no
business involved with. Interest, curiosity killed the
cat. So my liberties were limited by the confinement
of my perimeters. My parents ordained a law for me.
But then
JOHN : Normal, isn't it?
DAVID KORESH: And as I began to grown and
began to learn, that law was taken away, and I could
walk/here and walk there. But penalties began to be
enacted because when I did break the glass or when I
did break the coffee table, I was punished with
understanding that I had been forewarned. When I did
get in the cookie jar and broke the lid off of it,
penalties. But still, I was not under the original
law.
Finally, in the backyard I was allowed to
play in the backyard, and my backyard was fenced. I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
was at liberty in my perimeter, a far larger perimeter,
but I knew I was not supposed to climb the fence.
JOHN: You were
DAVID KORESH: Huh?
JOHN: -- going through the imprinting stage.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And, finally, my
liberties were in the front yard without the fence.
And, finally, I was allowed to go, with permission,
into my next door neighbor's yard and to visit with my
friends and rules similar, 'or not so similar, applied
in their house. Respect the parents. Finally, those
laws were removed and I was allowed to go throughout my
neighborhood. And, finally, the day came with the
bicycles and the motorcycle, whatever, I could go
around town.
And, finally, it came to the point where I
t
could go out of state. I could go around the world.
But in every aspect of maturity and development, the
law never really changed. For my safety and for my
protection, the laws of culture, even reasoning,
liberty and restraint, were always based in the wisdom
of what I need to do to protect my freedom. If I went
to a foreign country, there were principles that I had
to abide by. Okay.
Finally, the maturity of complying to all of
17
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
t ♦
these laws finally begins to make us wonder how do laws
really govern the universe? So when you come up hither
and the door is open to every man's mind to see what
must be hereafter, the Book of Revelation. We see that
in Christ, though we might keep the laws of God, the
laws of men may condemn us. But Christ is free by God
and in heaven the Father has the law. Isaiah says,
Harken to me that seek after the righteousness. You
who seek the Lord, look to the rock whereby you're
hewn. God is that great rock, sits on a throne. So
look to the pit from which you're dug. For behold a
law shall proceed from God and God will make his
judgment to rest for a light to the people. And
there's the rock, there's the vision. There's God,
there's his law in his right hand, and his law is love,
mercy, and truth, to be revealed by the Lamb. And when
there's time no longer, this new covenant, the last
part of the New Testament, is to be revealed for all of
those who say they love Jesus. For all those who say
they look to Christ for salvation, for the salvation of
no other, there is one thing they're going to have to
receive, that's going to bring them into unity, and
that is the knowledge of the seven seals. Now, when I
show you the first seal, that's where you will be. You
will be in the light of the first seal, and there'll be
25
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
* >
18
a lot of fences and a lot of liberties, meaning this:
As you receive Christ Jesus, so walk ye in it, that's
what Paul says. You do not know the fullness of what
you're obtaining. So God's not going to place upon you
any bands or any barrier. I'm not going to come to you
and say all right, John, you can't smoke, you can't
drink, you can't eat pork, you can't eat crawdad tails,
you can't do this, you can't -- because, look, in this
world of sin we live in, we are so bound to such strict
requirements just to survive. The very few things that
we do have, we cherish, and these are things that we
thank God for. I mean, you've got to work what, five
days or six days out of a week?
JOHN: Work seven.
DAVID KORESH : Seven .
JOHN: Yeah.
r
j DAVID KORESH: All the time?
JOHN: On the eighth day I rest. (Laughing.)
DAVID KORESH: Okay. No, seriously, you
never get weekends off?
JOHN: Not on, not on these details.
DAVID KORESH: I mean, but if you were like
-- if you weren't having to mess with me --
JOHN: Oh, no, I meant regular --my regular
schedule would be five days a week.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, so, you know,
someone that comes to you and says well, now, look,
John, if you're going to serve God, you've got to work
Saturday and Sunday at the church, right then and there
you're not going to want that.
JOHN: Well, I know some people that do that,
you know.
DAVID KORESH: But it may be by their own
will .
JOHN: Oh, yeah, they want to do it.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. But that's because they
have received a greater light on it.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay, for instance, when
someone comes to you and says John, that strawberry
shortcake is going to make you sick one day, you need
i
to efat apples and oranges
JOHN: You eat that till you get sick, then
stop, right?
DAVID KORESH: Well, okay. What I'm saying
is, sometimes people have to be hurt by their sin,
liberty to sin.
JOHN: Yeah. That's what cures a lot of
alcoholics. They've got to bottom out before they
start to climb back up.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
* • -
20
DAVID KORESH: That's what cures a lot of
people who are very fanatic into health reform. They
first have to get cancer or sick before they put away
the smokes, put away the, the pork. I mean, you know,
I don't see nothing wrong with eating pork -- the first
time you get heart trouble, high cholesterol, what does
the doctor take you off of? That's the extremely high
-- you know, pork has high, high uric acid in it. I
mean, it's one of the animals of creation that doesn't
sweat, you know, it's got a sweat gland in its foot,
you know? But besides that, it's just -- the doctors
will tell you medically that pork, fatty meats are
dangerous to your health.
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. But --
JOHN: Well, you used to get trichinosis,
too #i from pork.
DAVID KORESH: Definitely. I mean --
JOHN: Some of the stuff you find in the
Bible had a good medical or health reason, you know.
DAVID KORESH: God's not stupid, especially
not my God. So also in the wisdom of the seals. Now,
there's going to be a people who in the latter days --
Joel says, are like no other people ever since the
beginning of time. Christ promises the last shall be
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
first and the least shall be greatest. We saw what
happened in the former reign, what happened to those
who followed Christ 2,000 years ago. But what will be
the reward of those who when there's time no longer can
learn to learn the truth, never before known, and yet,
all along hid within the scriptures of truth? The
scriptures tell us that eye hath not seen nor heard nor
ear heard, neither has entered into the minds of men
what God has prepared for those who wait for him. So
Christ is going to come soon, Christ is going to come
soon, Christ is going to come soon. Wait a minute.
Christ will not come and destroy an ignorant world when
the churches themselves are ignorant. No, God will
come and bring light first. The truth of the seals
will be nothing less or nothing more than what they
apply to be. So if you say Dave -- (indiscernible)
they* better stop smoking -- no. You see, you don't
have to do anything. All you --
JOHN: Do I have to give up sex?
DAVID KORESH: No.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: Where in the Bible does it say
to give up sex?
JOHN: I don't think it says it anywhere.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So what you know is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
22
what you've got to walk into. Now, when I begin to
open the seals to you, you're going to see things
that's going to make you say yeah, right, oh, man, yes,
yes. Because in Christ the truth is what sets you
free. Any requirement that is by law is going to bring
wrath, Paul says. Anything that makes you have to give
up what makes you what you are now, which, you know,
you're working every day, you're working to be set
free. You're working on the phone, being separated
from your wife and your friends and your family, to try
to get me to come to my senses, which is, you know,
according to the world's standard, which is a very
notable thing, you know, I, I, I commend you guys for
that, you know, trying to bring us out safe 'cause you
don't want us to be harmed. This is your job.
But you're doing this so that you can find a
place of service in the world, a place which you feel
is moral and good and helping people and so you can
make some bucks, because that's the way our society is
set up, bo you can be free to go home and kick your
heels up on the coffee table on the weekend, be with
your wife, be with your kids, watch some TV, watch some
cop and robbers movies or something like that, get some
good ideas out of it. You know, this is your world.
And now you're confronted with the people that -- this
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
• ,
is our world, too, but there's more to it. And we
can't, we can't be here angry at people. The guys out
here in the Bradleys, they don't know where we're
coming from. I can't be here with the full knowledge
of what I have and what I understand, and allow, and
allow the ignorance of the world to, to, to, to bring
it to the point of well, you dirty rotten dirty dogs --
no, on the contrary. You all don't know what we know
and you don't even profess to. That's what I was
telling John.
Now, John's upset, you know, because, you
know, sometimes I can be ornery. But if people don't
hear me out in honesty, then all that is remaining is
what it says -- that they shall see that which they've
not heard and they shall consider that which have not
been shown. I don't want anybody to be hurt. I don't
want^ anyone here to be hurt, I don't want anyone on the
outside to be hurt. And you're right, you know --
JOHN: Well, then why don't you come on out
of there? You know, let's, let's --
DAVID KORESH: I want to every day, John.
I'm just stuck between a reality of humanity and a
reality of divinity. Remember --
JOHN: How about those people that are having
some medical problems? I understand that Judy's finger
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
24
\
is a problem.
DAVID KORESH: Well, I mean it's -- it's,
it's not a problem any more. You're more than welcome
to talk to her at any time. Remember, these people all
answer for themselves.
JOHN: Okay. I was thinking about maybe she
needed some medical treatment.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. Well, you know,
definitely she, you know, she's going to have to have
her finger reset and everything, you know.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID KORESH: I mean, I'm limping around
now. I mean, you know, you know, I don't know if you
saw where I got hit at, but --
JOHN: Yeah, I saw that video.
DAVID KORESH: Did it look real or did it
looks like it was imitation?
JOHN: I didn't really give it that much -- I
mean, it looked okay to me.
DAVID KORESH: (Laughing) John, I'm really
shot.
JOHN: Yeah. I mean, that's no big deal.
I've been shot, too, you know?
DAVID KORESH: You're right. It, it, it --
JOHN: You know --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
25
DAVID KORESH: It feels good when it stops
hurting.
JOHN: Yeah, there you go. You know, I mean,
you know
DAVID KORESH: Where were you shot at?
JOHN : Hmmm?
DAVID KORESH: Where was you shot at?
JOHN: Where? I was shot at a lot in Vietnam
and I've been shot at in this job.
DAVID KORESH: No, but did you ever get hit?
JOHN: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: Where 'd you get hit?
JOHN: In the side.
DAVID KORESH: Oh.
JOHN: Actually, in the jacket.
DAVID KORESH: Oh. Did it -- how far'd it go
*
thropgh?
JOHN: All the way through.
DAVID KORESH: Straight through your
intestine and everything?
JOHN: No, the jacket. The jacket. It went
through the jacket.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, I see, through your skin
and through the jacket?
JOHN: Yeah. God takes care of people like
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
l
me , you know .
DAVID KORESH: Well, yeah, he's got to.
JOHN: God takes care of fools, children --
let's see, fools, children and, and, and drunks. I'm
not a drunk and I'm not a little kid, so, you know,
I've just been very lucky. I
DAVID KORESH: Well, John --
JOHN: -- lived through a lot of stuff
overseas .
DAVID KORESH: I appreciate you talking with
me. And Steve definitely told the truth when he said
that of all the guys that you were one of the most
merciful and, and wise and --
JOHN: Well, I need a lot of help, you know,
and you and Steve are the two guys that can provide it,
you know, if we work on this thing together. I know I
*
soured like a broken record.
DAVID KORESH: I know, we've got to come out.
I realize that.
JOHN: That's, that's inevitable, you know.
DAVID KORESH: It's clear.
JOHN: I mean, that's just, just as serious
as --
DAVID KORESH: And I have --
JOHN: -- the sun's going to come out -- but
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
27
\
it's going to be overcast.
DAVID KORESH : I have cried every night ,
saying look, Father, you know. I'll go out, I'll go
out. You know, what, what -- I mean, you know, I know
both aspects. I mean, I don't expect you to understand
where I'm coming from because, you know, I, I know the
visions. I, I know what we're looking at and I know
the two avenues and, you know, I'm, I'm willing,
because everything that I have done, you know, my work
is finished. And the only remainder of that work is if
at all possible, for those who have -- a lot of people
have hurt me. There's a, there's a lot of people on
the outside that, that believe this message. I know
you're aware of that. I've been doing this since 1985.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: You knqj*? And, you know, we,
we h^ad these -- we had this guy come in here recently
that's, you know, his name's Jesse Amen.
JOHN: Um -hum.
DAVID KORESH: He came in, you know, and he
told me that he had these thousands of people, you
know.
JOHN: The guy's a squirrel, right?
DAVID KORESH: Well, the guy, the guy
believed that he's a prophet and he had a message for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
28
me .
JOHN: He's a profit and loss, I think.
DAVID KORESH : Huh?
JOHN: He's a profit and loss, from what I
hear. I think he's a squirrel.
DAVID KORESH: Well, let me, let me say this
much. I always try to find an avenue of peace. I deal
with a lot of people, but, you know, he wanted me to
put up this red banner to be a signal to, to rally up
all these people, you know? And, like I say, you know,
we're not living in the days of beards and long hair
and stuff like that. You know, the people of God are
to be all things to all men and to not be spectacles.
That's hard to do today. You know, it's, it's hard to
tell sometimes the saints from sinners because
everybody has their style. But, like I said, you know,
we, ye sell, you know --on the weekends, you know, we
buy, we buy a lot of Army surplus stuff, right?
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: Buy it real cheap and sell it,
you know, at the gun shows and stuff?
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: And so we had a lot of
fatigues and stuff. When he came here, he came with no
shoes and he had -- his pants were muddy and all that.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
29
l
So we
JOHN : Gave him that Rambo look and sent him
out?
DAVID KORESH: No, no, no, no.
JOHN: What?
DAVID KORESH: No, we gave him some fatigues
and stuff, you know, that were, you know, that were
obtained down in Killeen. And, of course, you know,
that's, that's basically what he was wearing and stuff
like that 'cause, like, you know, I can buy, I can buy
a pair of pants and a shirt from these guys. You know,
they sell them after they leave the service.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And I can get those for like
two bucks, two fifty. And, you know, you go to a new
store and you'll pay, you'll pay 15 bucks for the pants
t
and J.5 bucks for the shirt. It's almost new condition.
And, you know, the most I've ever paid is like four
fifty for a pants and a shirt. And so, you know, we
buy these and we sell these things, you know, and we
give good deals on them and stuff. And so he was
wearing that all the time that he was here. And the
thing that he began to see was that we're not people
here that just -- jumping around at what God tells us
in our ears. I said look, before you came Jesse,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
30
\
before I came, there was Moses, and what he had to say
he wrote. And then there was Joshua. There was the
Judges and there was Samuel and there was the prophets
and there was Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel . You
know, get in line, my friend. Get in line. If you've
got something to say, let's hear those who came first.
And, above all, here's God in the last book. God's the
last one to talk and God don't say nothing. He gives
his book to the Lamb and the Lamb has the last word,
and there are seven seals, Jesse. And here you are to
give me a revelation. You've got all these people on
the outside that's ready to, to jump in and jump and,
and, and, and retaliate and all. I said my friend,
heaven's heaven. You know, God's in the saving
business. You know, enough life's been lost as it is.
There are seven seals. Are you here to show me the
f
sea3js, Jesse? If not, listen. So I began to show him,
and he got really subdued, but he began to realize that
the more he was learning the more he was off track in
his own experience.
JOHN: Do you know who his father is?
DAVID KORESH: His father?
JOHN: Yeah, Jesse's.
DAVID KORESH: Uh-uh.
JOHN: Lightning Bolt something.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
\
31
DAVID KORESH: Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Lord God
Lightning.
JOHN: Yeah, I think, I think Jesse's a
freaking nut, you know?
DAVID KORESH: Well --
JOHN: They don't lock people up any more for
that , you know .
DAVID KORESH: Well, let me explain again.
There's a lot of people in religion, people think God
talks to them. Okay? And they get very zealous. And
it's kind of like a fanatic. Now, I know this is
applied to me, but hear me out. A fanatic is somebody
who's lost sight of their goal and tried twice as hard
to, to obtain it. Okay?
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: I mean --
i JOHN: You know, I'm not condemning the guy
for being nuts, you know. That's unfortunate.
DAVID KORESH: Well, what, what's he doing
now that's --
JOHN: I, I don't know if he's in the slammer
or he's out.
DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway, when he got
ready, when he got ready to leave, you know, when he
finally said that look, I've, I've learned more than I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
32
can digest. He says, he says, you know, you've got
your message from God and I've got my message. I gave
my message, he says --
JOHN: His message is he ran out of
Thorazine, I think.
DAVID KORESH: Well, his message was is that
when he came here --he found out we don't smoke pot
and we don't do the things that, that he's accustomed
to doing.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: So after a while, he began to, to
hunger and thirst for his spiritual alignment. I said
to him, I said Jesse -- see, I knew that when he went
out -- I knew he wasn't going to be out on the road.
So I told him, I said Jesse, you're free to come and
go, but let me remind you one more time, and I gave him
t
a study on Isaiah 28, you know. And, you know, he
can't, he can't deny the truth, you know. We treated
him with the highest respect and, and we made sure
that, you know, he wasn't around any, any of the, any
of the arms and stuff like that, you know. And, like I
said, we do everything we can to, to bring about peace.
And so I finally said look, do me one favor as a
brother. What's that? I says look, don't go out there
in those Army fatigues. I said I've got something
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
*
that's better. And then I bought him that suit, and so
he came out in the suit.
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: And --
JOHN: Probably was mistaken for an attorney,
you know?
DAVID KORESH: Now that was funny.
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: I heard that someone mentioned
that on the news.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: But attorneys don't wear hats
like that.
JOHN: There's a couple that wear just about
thing. (Laughs)
DAVID KORESH: You know? And I gave him, I
t
gave* him my new pair of boots, you know, that I won't
need for a while, I don't think.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: But at least, you know, like I
say, when we try to find avenues for peace and
understanding one another, you know, I didn't, I didn't
tell him he was wrong or anything. I let him talk. He
did most of all the talking in the beginning and he was
the one that was, you know, going to do this great help
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
34
for us and that they see the oppression, all that. And
I'm the one that tried to explain to him, look, these
men out here are doing their job, and there's a lot of
people out there that have attitudes. And, you know,
we're subject to attitudes, but you've got to
understand where we're coming from, Jesse. And, of
course, you know, Lord God Lightning Amen was, was
supposed to be the real winger-dinger, you know?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And he began to say well,
well, I know you're the Son and I know who the Father
is, and my message to you is -- I said okay, now, look,
if your message to me is this and my message from my
God who sits on the throne is, and I repeated what I
showed him already in the scriptures, then something
doesn't harmonize here. I mean, you know, what I've
f
showed you thus far in the first seal, something
doesn't harmonize. Am I supposed to go by your
message? Or by what is in the seal? Well, brother,
that's up to you. Well, I have to go by the weight of
evidence and there's more prophets agreeing to the
first seal than there is agreeing with you.
So, you know, finally, after a while, he
just, he just -- he couldn't hold on to his independent
he -speaks- to-God-personally religion and be bombarded
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
every day with what's already written and what's
already been pre-revealed. So he chose to leave, and
he left in peace. But he left with, with peace and he
left with respecting us and loving us and, and
likewise. But I knew that it would be, it would be
better because I knew that he -- I knew he would come
to a rude awakening, that he wasn't just going to walk
out of here and go back on the streets and go out and
find his strength. You know?
JOHN: Um-hum. It'll be a while before he
gets any drugs probably, unless it's maintenance stuff,
you know?
DAVID KORESH: And that's, that's something
that religion is never supposed to be involved in.
It'B, it's condemned in the scriptures, you know, and
so many people, young people today do that because
t
th^y, they consider their -- like I used to teach a lot
of parents never to make this mistake. The fat lady is
laying on the couch watching "All In the Family, "
right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And she's sitting there and
eating a lemon pie and munching on some Cheez-Its, and
her son comes floating in and she goes what are you
doing all those drugs again? You're out of your mind
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
e
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
36
-- are you on an illusion? He turns to her and he says
Mom, look, I'm into my delusion, but here you are fat,
laying on the, on the couch, watching -- living a life
that's not real -- soap operas, you know how those are?
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: I mean, I've seen women who --
as a matter of fact I had an aunt one time that one day
I walked in -- me and my cousin was out playing out at
the farm and we walked in and she was on the telephone
crying because someone had died, and she was crying,
talking to her daughter. And come to find out -- I
was, I was scared 'cause I thought she was talking
about one of our relatives -- she was talking about
somebody that died on the soap opera.
JOHN: She needs to get a life.
DAVID KORESH: No, seriously --
*
i JOHN: I know, I know you're serious. You
know, it's like those Trekkies, you know.
DAVID KORESH: Um-hum.
JOHN: They need to get a life. Even William
Shatner said that. He said for crying out loud, you
know, I appreciate your support, but go get a life,
people. You know, 'cause they, they go thousands of
miles to go to a Trekky convention. They need to, to
get a life.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
DAVID KORESH: But they think that is life.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: I mean that life -- the eye is
made for seeing, the ear is made for hearing, the mind
is made for perceiving. And that little, little box
there that people worship every day, you know, has a
far interesting life in that box than what they have to
spin in just looking at the world.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: But the keynote was is that
this woman is there and she's living this unreal life
and that's her drug. And she's sitting there eating a,
a lemon pie that's imitation lemon, imitation meringue,
imitation -- everything in it is, is biochemically
structured -- aromatically, so to speak, to simulate
the actual taste compositions of nature, but yet, it's
t
counterfeit .
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: You know, I mean, here this
person is, is, is sensitizing a lemon that doesn't
exist .
JOHN: Urn- hum.
DAVID KORESH: And the chemicals and carbons
and, and, and, and by-products of that is, is
destroying her and causing her body to produce inferior
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
38
cells, developing cancer, poison blood, bad brain
cells, inability to reason and think properly. She's
just dying a slow death.
JOHN: It's, it's like being led astray by a
false prophet.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Who promises peace
and safety and love when there is none. Now, there is
in this world today, a truth that to many is called the
refreshing from the presence of the Lord. Peter talked
about it in the end times. The Russian walls, the
Communistic walls are breaking down, but a far more
dangerous wall is being built up, for capitalization is
only fluent if it be pushed and aided by a system
that's as old as the Roman Empire which kept it from
falling. Rome didn't fall, it converted. There's a
difference .
t
i And unless men are inspired with the spirit,
emancipated by the traditions of men, regulated by the
unknown -- God is the unknown. The thought of
hereafter, the question of death and what it holds for
us has been the intriguing question of all those who've
come and gone in this world. And it's the Christmas
and it's the Easter and it's the Halloween that imparts
to men the spirit of the world that tells us to spend
and to buy and to give and to promote the good will of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
i
\
39
the tradition. And this is what boosts the economy, so
that in the sorcery of buying and selling,
merchandising, it's also highly -- most highly
developed in the subject of Christianity. And you're
right in regards to your question. Do good ministers
have to be good salesmen? They're the best. But their
product will not stand up in the judgment of truth.
There's only one truth that the Apostle John said, this
must be hereafter. And as long as this world steps
over that testament, man will always be subject to the
deceptions and cruelties and vanities of the minds of
men. And, finally, it has to come to an end. Christ
has forgiven and made intercession.
JOHN: This, this does, too, Dave, you know?
DAVID KORESH: Well, definitely.
JOHN: This situation.
•* DAVID KORESH: Definitely. Well, if both,
both come to a hedge. By mercy --
JOHN: Hopefully, hopefully, peacefully.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly, by all means. And,
like I said, if you, if you will read Psalms 2, ask
yourself who's the one that brings those bands and
seals? They tell me they don't want to talk religion.
I say look, this is a political matter. You are
speaking in behalf of the United States of America and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I
\
I
bumps?
40
JOHN: Well, doesn't that give you goose
DAVID KORESH: Well, no. Carnally -- well, I
mean, you know, I was a Boy Scout, remember that.
JOHN: I was a Marine officer, but this is --
that's even more of a thrilling statement.
DAVID KORESH: Well --
JOHN: I don't know that, you know,
nationally we're as reasonable as I'm trying to be.
DAVID KORESH: I guess that's why a lot of
techniques are -- like the, like the noise machines and
all that.
JOHN: They've got to go. That's not that
reasonable, is it?
DAVID KORESH: Well, no.
i JOHN: But that's the reality of a situation
like this.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, but the, the thing of it
is, like I say, is --
JOHN: You know, we try to appeal to the, to
the reasonable side of people in these situations, and
then if, if they don't show that, then evidently
unreasonable means are, are used, and you just talked
about one.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
41
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, but see, the thing of it
is is that, you know, if we were not settled
intelligently, decisively, in every position in regards
to our necessity to serve the truth of God first, then
we would be in that position of the cult where the cult
has its beliefs and doctrines based upon theories of
men. Well, it sounds good, yeah, I guess it's
feasible, well -- And, of course, any time the theory
is tested, especially at the risk of one's own safety
or life, that's where cult awareness groups are so
effective. You can de-program somebody who's based
their life on a theory.
JOHN: Yeah, but the word "cult" in and of
itself is not, you know, a negative. You know, it's
just a common occur --
DAVID KORESH: Well, what I'm saying is I'm
t
saying in the negative terminology. Like, like Jesse
Amen, right? I mean, like the groups that, that
believe in this God speaks to them and they're
independent of any, any subject of, of, of scrutiny or
-- you know, we're talking about a logical -- let's sit
down and let's, let's open a book and let's not just
listen to a theory. Let's, let's, let's compare
scripture with scripture. Let's compare statement to
statement. Let's first find out if the prophets
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
f t
42
themselves were on base. I mean, if they don't agree
amongst themselves perfectly, then, then who are they
to tell us what to do?
JOHN: Urn -hum.
DAVID KORESH: You know, let's be logical
about this, you know. Okay, so when that process is
followed, then we say to ourselves well, okay,
conclusively --
(End of Tape #219.)
i